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Trade proposal Montreal - Vancouver

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Old
08-14-2004, 04:54 PM
  #101
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsArea
Im 24 years old... I did'nt see Howe play... How about his size? How do you think he would do in the actual hockey game? How do you think Bertuzzi would perform if you put him back 30-40 years ago? The caliber was obviously alot weaker looking by the good old tapes!
:lol This thread just gets better and better.

Howe scored 15 goals in the NHL at 50+ years old. Bertuzzi managed 17 last season in his late 20's. Nuff said.

If Howe had the same medicine and training techniques available to him that the current players do, he would have been equally as dominant. No doubt he would be the best player in the NHL today.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 08-14-2004 at 04:58 PM.
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Old
08-14-2004, 04:57 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Yes Bertuzzi replaces Zednik..

Who's gonna replace Markov,Bulis and were not gonna have a first round pick in 05
Bulis would be easily replaced by a prospect... Could be Plekanec, Hossa, Perezhogin...

Markov would be replaced by Beauchemin or Hainsey... Im not saying they would be as effective as Markov but Beauchemin can do a solid job right now while Hainsey can improve through the season...

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:01 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Yes Bertuzzi replaces Zednik..

Who's gonna replace Markov,Bulis and were not gonna have a first round pick in 05
You have to give a little extra if you want to pry one of the best players in the NHL from a legitimate cup contender. It would probably cost more than what was originally proposed.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:03 PM
  #104
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Beauchemin,Hainsey can't even crack the habs lineup, what makes you think he will step in and become #1-#2 defenseman on the Habs roster. Trading Markov would be one of the weakest management moves in the past decade.

2nd, Bertuzzi is all good in the season but he hasn't done **** in the playoffs unlike Zednik,Markov who raise their game.
NHL 24 6 8 14 for Bertuzzi ..I expect more for a guy who's suppose to be "the most dominany PF in history" . He hasn't led the Canucks past anywhere and his future is in question..will he even be as effective..will he play the same way?

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:06 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
:lol This thread just gets better and better.

Howe scored 15 goals in the NHL at 50+ years old. Bertuzzi managed 17 last season in his late 20's. Nuff said.

If Howe had the same medicine and training techniques available to him that the current players do, he would have been equally as dominant. No doubt he would be the best player in the NHL today.
The year I was born... Lafleur put similar numbers at the end of his carreer...

If ever you think the level of the game 24 years ago is comparable to what it is now......

Do you seriously think Coffey and Greatzky would have put such numbers the way the game is played in 2000 years??

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:09 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsArea
The year I was born... Lafleur put similar numbers at the end of his carreer...

If ever you think the level of the game 24 years ago is comparable to what it is now......

Do you seriously think Coffey and Greatzky would have put such numbers the way the game is played in 2000 years??
Talk about not getting the point. You're a lost cause and not worth the effort. Talk about grasping at straws.


Methinks I'm unsubscribing from this thread before I go Psycho on some of your *****


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 08-14-2004 at 05:12 PM.
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Old
08-14-2004, 05:09 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
It would probably cost more than what was originally proposed.
:lol

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:21 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Beauchemin,Hainsey can't even crack the habs lineup, what makes you think he will step in and become #1-#2 defenseman on the Habs roster. Trading Markov would be one of the weakest management moves in the past decade.

2nd, Bertuzzi is all good in the season but he hasn't done **** in the playoffs unlike Zednik,Markov who raise their game.
NHL 24 6 8 14 for Bertuzzi ..I expect more for a guy who's suppose to be "the most dominany PF in history" . He hasn't led the Canucks past anywhere and his future is in question..will he even be as effective..will he play the same way?
First... I never said Beauchemin could do Markov's job... I said he could be a solid defenseman for us...

Second... Markov is'nt a #1 OR #2 defenseman at the moment... He did nothing to prove he could handle the PP and has been inconsistency last season... At the moment Markov is a nice #3 defenseman want it or no... Souray was our #1 defenseman and Brisebois has been as reliable and as effective as Markov last season...

Third... Its in my opinion, I think Beauchemin has everything to be a solid defenseman in the NHL, not saying he would replace Markov but still could be very solid and reliable to me... Beauchemin can generate some offense too...

Fourth... Bertuzzi has been a force in the 2003 playoffs, maybe not on the scoreboard but if you saw him play and know the game a few, you would understand what I mean... Zednik has had incredible 2001 playoffs but since then, he tends to rely on his skills and is'nt as effective... 2004 playoffs, he played on the first line with Koivu and Kovalev, what doesnt mean much, he was average to me... he scored a great goal in the 7th game but you are dreaming if you think he can be close to be as effective as Bertuzzi!


Last edited by NewHabsEra*: 08-14-2004 at 05:42 PM.
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Old
08-14-2004, 05:23 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhov
:lol
Hey dude, this isn't NHL 2002. Bertuzzi means a LOT to the city of Vancouver - he's a cultural icon. Dealing a superstar for roleplayers is terrible PR, especially for an elite team. We'd lose a ton of fans. Plus, Bertuzzi sells tickets. Andrei Markov may be a solid defender, but he doesn't sell tickets.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:33 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Talk about not getting the point. You're a lost cause and not worth the effort. Talk about grasping at straws.


Methinks I'm unsubscribing from this thread before I go Psycho on some of your *****
Gordie Howe 6"0 205 lbs

Todd Bertuzzi 6"3 235

Everyone know that the skills level has increased alot over the years, everyone know the game is played alot faster, everyone know the guys are bigger, everyone know you have to know how to play well defensively to be competitive as a team...

I never saw Howe played but I saw some tapes and its amazing how the goalers are alot weaker, no one even Tretiak could be a decent backup if you would take him from the past and put him in the net now! Defensemans' skating was pathetic... I could continue like that but I think you catch the point...


Last edited by NewHabsEra*: 08-14-2004 at 05:44 PM.
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Old
08-14-2004, 05:42 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsArea
Gordie Howe 6"0 205 lbs

Todd Bertuzzi 6"3 235

Everyone know that the skills level has increase alot over the years, everyone know the game is played alot faster, everyone know the guys are bigger, everyone know you have to know how to play well defensively to be competitive as a team...

I never saw Howe played but I saw some tapes and its amazing how the goalers are alot weaker, no one even Tretiak could be a decent backup if you would take him from the past and put him in the net now! Defensemans' skating was pathetic... I could continue like that but I think you catch the point...
You're talking about an era where the guys didn't even train in the offseason. You could drop Martin Rucinsky into 1950s hockey world and he'd probably be one of the best scorers because he's in such good shape in comparison.

You can't look at it with just tapes, you have to factor so many things. And even then, there's no doubt in my mind that if Howe got the benefits that today's NHLers get, he'd smoke Bertuzzi.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:42 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
He has a 100 mph slapshot, so I hope his transition game develops, but for now he should only be used as a defensive stalwart.
That would be great if he could actually play good defense. Too bad he can't.

Talk about a 4th overall pick gone to poop. What a waste of a pick. But then again, all the Canucks 1st rounders in the last decade+ have been junk.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:45 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamer
That would be great if he could actually play good defense. Too bad he can't.

Talk about a 4th overall pick gone to poop. What a waste of a pick. But then again, all the Canucks 1st rounders in the last decade+ have been junk.
Get lost, troll.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:48 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Hey dude, this isn't NHL 2002. Bertuzzi means a LOT to the city of Vancouver - he's a cultural icon. Dealing a superstar for roleplayers is terrible PR, especially for an elite team. We'd lose a ton of fans. Plus, Bertuzzi sells tickets. Andrei Markov may be a solid defender, but he doesn't sell tickets.
Thats' exactly it!!!! The players mean more to their own team then to others. This is why this trade is unrealistic.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:50 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Get lost, troll.
Nice rebuttal. Truth hurts doesn't it?

Tell me, what first rounders of the Canucks' have been successful?

One out of 13 drafts (not counting 2004). Mattias Ohlund is all there is to show for 13 first rounds. As well as a few very high picks that have turned into okay players (Sedins, Allen), but nowhere near the expected outcome for those high draft positions.

As for Allen, let's see....who would I rather have Bryan Allen or guys like Dmitri Kalinin, Robyn Regehr, Scott Gomez, Simon Gagne or Alex Tanguay. All first rounders.

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Old
08-14-2004, 05:58 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamer
Nice rebuttal. Truth hurts doesn't it?

Tell me, what first rounders of the Canucks' have been successful?

One out of 13 drafts (not counting 2004). Mattias Ohlund is all there is to show for 13 first rounds. As well as a few very high picks that have turned into okay players (Sedins, Allen), but nowhere near the expected outcome for those high draft positions.
Sedins, Ohlund, Allen, Kesler, Ference, Umberger (not a bad player, just a headcase we had to get rid of)

in 1995 and 2002, we didn't have first-rounders.

Nathan Smith is likely a bust, and Josh Holden definitely is. It's way too early to tell with Schneider, but he looks like the real deal. Every other player we've drafted in the last ten years has been a bona-fide NHL player.


Now let's look at Calgary, for s+g.

Chris Dingman, Denis Gauthier, Dan Tkaczuk, Derek Morris, Rico Fata, Oleg Saprykin, Brent Krahn, Chuck Kobasew, Eric Nystrom, Dion Phaneuf.


How is that any better than Vancouver's? What room do you have to be insulting Vancouver's draft record? Right now, it's just Morris, Gauthier, Phaneuf, and a bunch of fringe players that wouldn't make the NHL if it were to contract by four teams.


Sorry for the troll comment, but how else do I reply to "Hahaha bryan allen sucks" and the like? I give you his pluses, and you just stick your head in the ground, only to remove it to say "whatever he sucks!"

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Old
08-14-2004, 06:35 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Dealing a superstar for roleplayers is terrible PR
I didn't know Zednik and Markov were role players.

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Old
08-14-2004, 06:41 PM
  #118
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Great value, but does it improve the Canucks squad? I personally don't think so. Bertuzzi gives us a massive physical presence up front with skill that no other player in this league really can match - maybe Keith Tkachuk on a good night, that's about it.

I'd say no thanks to this one.

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Old
08-14-2004, 07:02 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
I didn't know Zednik and Markov were role players.
Zednik would be the least talented player on the Canucks' top six, and Markov would be a #3 defenseman. They would by no means be stars on the Canucks' roster.

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08-14-2004, 07:05 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Zednik would be the least talented player on the Canucks' top six, and Markov would be a #3 defenseman. They would by no means be stars on the Canucks' roster.
I think Zednik should atleast be considered as good as the Sedins, probably better.

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Old
08-14-2004, 07:21 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazzy-19
I think Zednik should atleast be considered as good as the Sedins, probably better.
Zednik did not show that he's a better player than the Sedins last year. He scored 50 points with 17:30 ATOI. Daniel Sedin got 54 with 13:32 and Henrik Sedin got 42 with 14:02. Sedins averaged higher points-per-minute than Zednik.

This ignores intangibles like defensive awareness, time spent in opposing zone, etc.

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08-14-2004, 07:25 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Sedins, Ohlund, Allen, Kesler, Ference, Umberger (not a bad player, just a headcase we had to get rid of)

in 1995 and 2002, we didn't have first-rounders.

Nathan Smith is likely a bust, and Josh Holden definitely is. It's way too early to tell with Schneider, but he looks like the real deal. Every other player we've drafted in the last ten years has been a bona-fide NHL player.


Now let's look at Calgary, for s+g.

Chris Dingman, Denis Gauthier, Dan Tkaczuk, Derek Morris, Rico Fata, Oleg Saprykin, Brent Krahn, Chuck Kobasew, Eric Nystrom, Dion Phaneuf.


How is that any better than Vancouver's? What room do you have to be insulting Vancouver's draft record? Right now, it's just Morris, Gauthier, Phaneuf, and a bunch of fringe players that wouldn't make the NHL if it were to contract by four teams.
I'm sorry, but Kesler was a terrible pick. Ference is minor league level garbage, Umberger is Umberger, and the rest were very high picks.

The Canucks had a second overall, a third overall and a fourth overall. They managed to turn those very high picks into the Sedins and Bryan Allen. That is absolutely hopeless asset management.

And as of right now I'd take Oleg Saprykin over Henrik. The Sedins get fed premium ice time and do little with it (Henrik anyway). Saprykin gets very little ice time and does some very good things in the time he does get.

And anyways, I'm not saying the Flames drafting has been good, because it hasn't. What I'm saying is that the Canucks' drafting has been worse than the Flames', and that's an accomplishment.

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Old
08-14-2004, 07:29 PM
  #123
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If you want to criticize Bryan Allen...

You shoudl comment on things like
1) Lack of lateral agility
2) Lack of accuracy on cannon slap shot

Just saying "Bryan Allen sucks" doesn't contribute much.

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Old
08-14-2004, 08:08 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamer
I'm sorry, but Kesler was a terrible pick. Ference is minor league level garbage, Umberger is Umberger, and the rest were very high picks.
Kesler a terrible pick? Early scouting reports compare his career likelihood to that of Mike Ricci. That's pretty good.

Quote:
The Canucks had a second overall, a third overall and a fourth overall. They managed to turn those very high picks into the Sedins and Bryan Allen. That is absolutely hopeless asset management.
One of the best second-lines in the NHL (even though they lack a RWer), and one of the best developing mean defensemen in the NHL? Scott Stevens has even gone on record saying Allen is his favorite young defenseman. Who would you have picked in 1999 over the Sedins? Even in hindsight, the Sedins were the best choice, outside of Martin Havlat.

Quote:
And as of right now I'd take Oleg Saprykin over Henrik. The Sedins get fed premium ice time and do little with it (Henrik anyway). Saprykin gets very little ice time and does some very good things in the time he does get.
Saprykin got 29 points with 13:47 icetime over 69 games. 0.0304926134 ppm.
D Sedin got 54 points with 13:32 icetime over 82 games. 0.0486603388 ppm.
H Sedin got 42 points with 14:02 icetime over 76 games. 0.0389177168 ppm.

So, Henrik has been producing about 30% more than Saprykin.

The only forwards from Calgary's roster last year that I'd rather have than the Sedins are Jarome Iginla, and Craig Conroy.

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Old
08-14-2004, 08:18 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Saprykin got 29 points with 13:47 icetime over 69 games. 0.0304926134 ppm.
D Sedin got 54 points with 13:32 icetime over 82 games. 0.0486603388 ppm.
H Sedin got 42 points with 14:02 icetime over 76 games. 0.0389177168 ppm.

So, Henrik has been producing about 30% more than Saprykin.

The only forwards from Calgary's roster last year that I'd rather have than the Sedins are Jarome Iginla, and Craig Conroy.
Who does Saprykin play with? At least the Sedin's have each other, both of them being decently skilled. Saprykin plays with Iginla once in a while and the rest of the time he's playing with offensive stiffs like Stephane Yelle and Chris Clark. Hard to put up any points playing with those guys.

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