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Old
08-31-2011, 06:52 PM
  #26
Luck 6
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This thread is a bit ridiculous. Okay, you don't like the proposal as an Isle fan, that's fine I get it. But to say Ballard is worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick is idiotic. Maybe that's his value to a closed minded fan who just looks at the stat sheet, but to a scout or GM who knows the whole story he's worth much more than that.

Ballard could easily get us back a legit top 6 forward with a pick to balance it either way. Or, a 1st and decent prospect if we wanted it that way.

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08-31-2011, 08:59 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
This thread is a bit ridiculous. Okay, you don't like the proposal as an Isle fan, that's fine I get it. But to say Ballard is worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick is idiotic. Maybe that's his value to a closed minded fan who just looks at the stat sheet, but to a scout or GM who knows the whole story he's worth much more than that.

Ballard could easily get us back a legit top 6 forward with a pick to balance it either way. Or, a 1st and decent prospect if we wanted it that way.
Lol with the year he had last year and the money he makes, you would be lucky to get a 2nd for him. Probably more realistically a 3rd. There was a reason he was sitting in the press box during a lot of games in the playoffs, and its not because he was injured.

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08-31-2011, 09:23 PM
  #28
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Lol with the year he had last year and the money he makes, you would be lucky to get a 2nd for him. Probably more realistically a 3rd. There was a reason he was sitting in the press box during a lot of games in the playoffs, and its not because he was injured.
Thanks for proving my point. Going into last offseason the general consensus on HF board was Bieksa was worth no more than a 3rd, as he didn't play too well in his injury riddled season. He bounced back and earned a 5 year extension, and he's one of our top 2 shutdown dmen. Are you telling me its unlikely Ballard will do the same?

Ballard started camp coming off a serious hip injury into a new system. He wasn't fully in shape and didn't get it right away. Taking that into account he also said he wasn't as prepared as he should have been and he indentified the conditioning standards are much higher when playing for a contender like Vancouver. We also had amazing depth Ballard had to get in front of, which was hard as he suffered a concussion and knee injury during the same season right after coming off of his hip surgery.

Take that all into account when saying he's worth a 3rd. GMs are aware of that, and if he were available the offers would be much higher than that. Ballard was a top pairing guy in Phx and Flo, or atleast a good #3. He'll get back there I'm sure. He said the Canucks gave him an extensive and detailed offseason plan and he was confident hed be ready this year.

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08-31-2011, 09:32 PM
  #29
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I'd make this deal, but then again I'm pretty high on Ballard and pretty low on Bailey.

I doubt Snow would agree to it.

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08-31-2011, 09:47 PM
  #30
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Might be off-topic, but is Hodgson similar to Bailey? The move appears redundant at first glance.

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08-31-2011, 10:14 PM
  #31
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Might be off-topic, but is Hodgson similar to Bailey? The move appears redundant at first glance.
Sort of, but we'd love to have both. This doesn't make us a better team now though, so no Van fan would do this. Ballard will be an important part of this years team.

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09-01-2011, 02:05 AM
  #32
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any counter offer, or just no?
Jon Sim

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09-01-2011, 05:20 AM
  #33
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I really think that Vancouver and Gillis will hold on to Ballard this year. The environment and the total change of philosophy really threw his game out of consistency last year. I think with coming to camp knowing what to expect will help a lot and I think Ballard will show a lot of critiques he can still play. I don't think it's fair to throw the label of 'tanker' on Ballard just yet.

I think Vancouver rejects this deal anyways. Vancouver is looking for a little more grit when acquiring new players and losing Ballard would thin out their defensive depth too much for a hit or miss in Bailey.

And visa-versa. The Islanders want to solidify their defense so a question mark like Ballard right now is probably not worth the swap given the upside Bailey has.

It doesn't seem like GM's ever willingly trade question mark players for other question mark players. Ultimately, you can only be criticized if you make the trade and it goes poorly. If you don't make the trade no one will ever know if you made a mistake. haha...my 'philosophy'

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Old
09-01-2011, 08:44 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post
One question why would the Canucks trade Ballard when his value is at an all time low? Just last year Ballard returned a 1 st round pick, a very solid prospect and a top 9 forward, why would MG go and trade him one year later for a much worse return? Anyway Ballard will be a key member of the teams this season with Ehrhoff gone.
yep and there is no reason why Ballard can't return to the player we all know he is. He showed glimpses of it last year during the season and the playoffs, then was promptly parked on the bench the next game for uknown reasons. Then he struggled on and off probably because his confidence was at an all time low.

AV has no choice but to give him steady ice time this year. I expect to see a much more consistent player.

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09-01-2011, 11:10 AM
  #35
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No more Ballard proposals.
It's just an invitation for ppl whose only familiarity with him is that Tanev got in over him in the final to tell us how much he sucks.
After 5 solid top-4 seasons with nary an injury he came to a stacked team and suffered through 3 bad injuries (hip, concussion, knee), and never got back on track.
This is a new year and he'll get a new start, and with Erhoff gone, he's needed in that top-4 role.
And the Canucks do not need any more 2nd-3rd line tweeners -- this deal makes no sense.

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09-01-2011, 11:33 AM
  #36
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Ballard will bounce back and then you won't even be able to pry him out of Vancouver with a 1st. Book it.

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09-01-2011, 04:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Ballard will bounce back and then you won't even be able to pry him out of Vancouver with a 1st. Book it.
If a team offered a first for Ballard even right now I'd be reluctant to do the trade, if he had a bounce back season I sure as hell wouldn't trade Ballard for a 1 st round pick.

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09-01-2011, 04:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post
If a team offered a first for Ballard even right now I'd be reluctant to do the trade, if he had a bounce back season I sure as hell wouldn't trade Ballard for a 1 st round pick.
thats ok i wish Ballard the best. i figure any way you look at it WE won that trade........ and we werent even in it.....

have to think that based on the season Ballard and Grabner had, it may have cost you the cup

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09-01-2011, 05:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
thats ok i wish Ballard the best. i figure any way you look at it WE won that trade........ and we werent even in it.....

have to think that based on the season Ballard and Grabner had, it may have cost you the cup
To assume Grabner would have had a 34 goal season in Vancouver is pretty unrealistic. For all we know he'd be injured by the finals like everyone else was. Grabner wouldn't be given near the amount of quality minutes he received in NY either. As many of us predicted, I think Grabner would have potted between 20-25 goals in Vancouver last season. The real problem was more that Raymond didn't build on his last season, instead he regressed.

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09-01-2011, 05:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
thats ok i wish Ballard the best. i figure any way you look at it WE won that trade........ and we werent even in it.....

have to think that based on the season Ballard and Grabner had, it may have cost you the cup
Grabner no showed in training camp (as always) so we would have either had to waive him (giving him up for nothing) or give him a spot on the team.

If he can't make the Panthers out of training camp what are the odds he makes the Canucks or deserves a spot?

Plus we were able to dump Bernier

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09-01-2011, 06:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
To assume Grabner would have had a 34 goal season in Vancouver is pretty unrealistic. For all we know he'd be injured by the finals like everyone else was. Grabner wouldn't be given near the amount of quality minutes he received in NY either. As many of us predicted, I think Grabner would have potted between 20-25 goals in Vancouver last season. The real problem was more that Raymond didn't build on his last season, instead he regressed.
im not saying Grabner would have been AS good. just that raymond was THAT bad

he skated hard dont get me wrong, but Kesler needed SOME help. Ryan was worn out at the end, there was nothing left

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09-01-2011, 06:42 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
im not saying Grabner would have been AS good. just that raymond was THAT bad

he skated hard dont get me wrong, but Kesler needed SOME help. Ryan was worn out at the end, there was nothing left
Kesler being worn out at the end was due to him skating hard. It had nothing to do with Raymond's lack of production. However the reason we lost can be pinned on player's not producing (Raymond being 1 of them).

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09-01-2011, 06:59 PM
  #43
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Kesler being worn out at the end was due to him skating hard. It had nothing to do with Raymond's lack of production. However the reason we lost can be pinned on player's not producing (Raymond being 1 of them).
thats what im saying, with Samuelsson out and Raymond not producing Kesler was trying to do too much; thats when you stop playing within yourself. then you end up pressing or hurting yourself. i really think if they had traded Raymond in place of Grabner. the cup would be in Vancouver

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09-01-2011, 07:09 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
thats what im saying, with Samuelsson out and Raymond not producing Kesler was trying to do too much; thats when you stop playing within yourself. then you end up pressing or hurting yourself. i really think if they had traded Raymond in place of Grabner. the cup would be in Vancouver
And what makes you think Grabner would have produced better than Raymond? At the time of the trade Raymond was coming of a 25 goal 53 point season while Grabner was still unproven at the NHL level, if the Canucks were to have give Raymond, Bernier and a 1 st round pick for Ballard Gillis would have been roasted, In hindsight, yes Grabner has turned out to be the better player so far, but at the time of the trade Raymond was much much more valuable.

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09-01-2011, 07:32 PM
  #45
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And what makes you think Grabner would have produced better than Raymond? At the time of the trade Raymond was coming of a 25 goal 53 point season while Grabner was still unproven at the NHL level, if the Canucks were to have give Raymond, Bernier and a 1 st round pick for Ballard Gillis would have been roasted, In hindsight, yes Grabner has turned out to be the better player so far, but at the time of the trade Raymond was much much more valuable.
see ive never been impressed with Raymond, Kesler is my favorite non islander player so I watch him alot and as a result I see Raymond alot too and when he drives to the net he's a far different player than when he doesnt and far too often Raymond is satisfied shooting into the goalies chest,than he is driving to the net.

The situation scares me because id like to see Kesler win the cup and as one of the top 5 players in hockey in my opinion, im afraid that last year might be his best chance.

with Ehrhoff gone and opposing teams and his teammates thinking that Luongo is shall we say manic-depressive sometimes, we really dont know if last year was the pinnacle for this team.

i really hope not but after seeing my NY Mets in 2006 go through much the same, i get that same uneasy feeling, no body in NY thought that was the end with Reyes, Beltran Wright, we thought it was just the beginning for the team, but you never know


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09-01-2011, 07:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
see ive never been impressed with Raymond, Kesler is my favorite non islander player so I watch him alot and as a result I see Raymond alot too and when he drives to the net he's a far different player than when he doesnt and far too often Raymond is satisfied shooting into the goalies chest,than he is driving to the net.

The situation scares me because id like to see Kesler win the cup and as one of the top 5 players in hockey in my opinion,im afraid that last year might be his best chance.

with Ehrhoff gone and opposing teams and his teammates thinking that Luongo is shall we say manic-depressive sometimes, we really dont know if last year was the pinnacle for this team.

i really hope not but after seeing my NY Mets go through much the same, i get that same uneasy feeling
I agree with analysis of Raymond. But to say it was Vancouvers best chanced at the cup really isn't accurate we lost Ehrhoff yes, but his production will be replaced with Edler playing the full year and the possible reemergence of Keith Ballard. If Vancouver can add a top 6 forward this year they'll have just as good a shoot at winning the cup this year. Also everyone knows Luongo isn't the most mentally sharp goalie in the league it really isn't anything new, I have full faith in Luongo and still consider him a top 5 goalie in the league.

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09-01-2011, 07:44 PM
  #47
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I agree with analysis of Raymond. But to say it was Vancouvers best chanced at the cup really isn't accurate we lost Ehrhoff yes, but his production will be replaced with Edler playing the full year and the possible reemergence of Keith Ballard. If Vancouver can add a top 6 forward this year they'll have just as good a shoot at winning the cup this year. Also everyone knows Luongo isn't the most mentally sharp goalie in the league it really isn't anything new, I have full faith in Luongo and still consider him a top 5 goalie in the league.
i hope youre right, my Isles have a way to go yet and ive sort of adopted the canucks for the playoffs because of Kesler, i guess its just human nature to wonder when you get so close and just miss like that

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09-01-2011, 09:38 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
see ive never been impressed with Raymond, Kesler is my favorite non islander player so I watch him alot and as a result I see Raymond alot too and when he drives to the net he's a far different player than when he doesnt and far too often Raymond is satisfied shooting into the goalies chest,than he is driving to the net.

The situation scares me because id like to see Kesler win the cup and as one of the top 5 players in hockey in my opinion, im afraid that last year might be his best chance.

with Ehrhoff gone and opposing teams and his teammates thinking that Luongo is shall we say manic-depressive sometimes, we really dont know if last year was the pinnacle for this team.

i really hope not but after seeing my NY Mets in 2006 go through much the same, i get that same uneasy feeling, no body in NY thought that was the end with Reyes, Beltran Wright, we thought it was just the beginning for the team, but you never know

Refreshing to see fans of other teams be knowledgeable about a players deficiencies rather than just crapping all over a player like everyone else. Raymond is a strong skater, plays good defensively, works his tail off and has done exactly what has been asked of him thus far. He's going to continue to get better and better no doubt.

At this point no one knows if Grabner will be a better player than Raymond. Hard to speculate as both players play in completely different environments.

I think a lot of fans (Canuck fans included) are a bit pre-mature in writing Raymond off at this point, much like Ballard. I believe when it's all said and done that both Ballard and Raymond will be integral pieces to Vancouver's success.

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Old
09-01-2011, 09:51 PM
  #49
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Refreshing to see fans of other teams be knowledgeable about a players deficiencies rather than just crapping all over a player like everyone else.
Im not really, its just when the Isles games end, the Canucks games are usually just starting so more often then not I'll watch, and since I really appreciate Ryans, game I get to see alot of Raymond. He does play hard and he does play defense, backcheck and isnt lazy, I just think he defers with the puck, sometimes you just have to be aggressive

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09-01-2011, 10:50 PM
  #50
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Ballard was bad in the regular season, and very very bad in the playoffs. At 4 million per year, he is a cap dump. When a guy with his experience, and at his price tag implodes like that, it's idiotic to deal for him in confidence. There may be no reason he can't bounce back, but there's no reason he will either. Patrick O'Sullivan went from a useful Top 6 forward, with upside, to a guy who can't make it back in the league in a year and a half. Ballard has never been a positive contributor to a winning team, and he's never got it done in the playoffs.

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