2. All the other sports in the world (aside of course from boxing and UFC, which just goes with out saying) don't have active fighting like hockey. Does Hockey really need fighting? I think the NHL will answer No and I think it is the right answer.
Correct. Hockey is not a martial art. It is a game of skill (Lemieux) and strategy (Gretzky). There are two strengths that formed - strength of delivery (Bobby Hull) and strength to handle the small ice (Howe.) Personally, I prefer watching Olympic and international hockey because gloves are not dropped. Watching makeshift boxing matches that result in Stortini bear-hugs is not fun to watch. Watching Laraque make a complete goof of himself in the run of 2006 was not fun or funny.
But....alas...just this off-season the Oilers have spent millions to sign not one...not two...but three guys whose identities as pro players are predicated upon predatorial play/fighting & enforcement.
Only one of the three are as one dimensional as the type of player being discussed.
Not that it changes your point a whole lot, but I think guys like Eager are where it will ultimately trend towards. His M.O. isn't to seek out the other teams heavy in a preconcieved show for the fans.
He plays a regular 4th line shift that may or may not result in a fight. He is here to intimidate and protect through the natural course of a game. He is in some senses a throw back to what the enforcer used to be...with perhaps a few more short wires but the point is still there.
Belak is was kind of a similar player only he was also in a victim of timing because he wasn't going up against similar players that could also play between the lines, he was going up against the dedicated pugilist that were out there for a single purpose.
I am a 'Don Cherry Type'. ANd I do NOT see any justification for the enforcers role in hockey.
I agree with you...we should be able to still have 'fighting'. But we do not need to have custom built enforcers, playing one shift per game, going out on a seek & destroy/get destroyed death march.
But....alas...just this off-season the Oilers have spent millions to sign not one...not two...but three guys whose identities as pro players are predicated upon predatorial play/fighting & enforcement.
And the majority of Oil Country was head over heels with the moves!
Why? I still strongly disagree that these 2011-12 Oilers are a 'tougher team'. For my money...Gagner, Gilbert, Paajarvi and surely Hemsky...are still the types of players vulnerble to physicality/intimidation. Surronding them with beef doesn't change the fact they're chickens.
In Utopia...we would see ALL teams RESIST the temptation to sign 'beef' whose primary focus is to bully/run-around/stalk/cheap-shot et al. And instead...invest more time & effort into developing the mental/physical toughness & character of the SKILL guys, instead.
What does it take to get to Utopia from whereever it is we're at right now?
Common sense & respect. Thats it.
And don't get me wrong...Im not implying this thesis is the cure all for concussions/depression/ tragedy away from the rink. I have no idea if this would help mitigate these tragic outcomes. But I know damn well it can't hurt to try.
I agree, though, I will say I don't mind Eager or Sutton, because both are billed as players that take a regular shift on the 4th/bottom paring and can do other things. It is the guys that don't even take the regular 4th line shift.
I too believe fighting belongs in the game, but only if it comes about from a hockey play. One teammate sticking up for another, someone defending themselves, or a scrum that escalates in to a scrap.
What doesn't belong is two "nuclear deterrants' pairing off right from the faceoff. How can this be deterred? maybe a minimum # of minutes played for dressed players? It wouldnt have to be a ton, say 7 minutes, but enough to deter coaches from wasting a bench spot on a guy like Big Mac who is only good for 2 minutes a game
I too believe fighting belongs in the game, but only if it comes about from a hockey play. One teammate sticking up for another, someone defending themselves, or a scrum that escalates in to a scrap.
What doesn't belong is two "nuclear deterrants' pairing off right from the faceoff. How can this be deterred? maybe a minimum # of minutes played for dressed players? It wouldnt have to be a ton, say 7 minutes, but enough to deter coaches from wasting a bench spot on a guy like Big Mac who is only good for 2 minutes a game
You don't have to call in NASA to figure this out. Just stop doing it. Team by team....step up....and make the right call...just stop signing guys to be 'Enforcers'. And each team that makes a concious commitment to do this...needs to take ownership of their decision. Announce the new direction/philosophy to the fans of your team, to the league and especially to your own players.
For a looong time now...this has been classic example of...one team does it and now they all do it...
Therefore...the way to break the habit is for one team to STOP doing it. DET already kinda' took the lead on this.
But....alas...just this off-season the Oilers have spent millions to sign not one...not two...but three guys whose identities as pro players are predicated upon predatorial play/fighting & enforcement.
And the majority of Oil Country was head over heels with the moves!
I sure don't welcome it and would be more than happy to wave bye to this aspect of the game.
Myself I like watching skilled players play a skilled game. Not two people maiming each other in a fight which is not at all a part of regular play.
Hockey can certainly exist without the fighters. The fighters need to be out of work.
I sure don't welcome it and would be more than happy to wave bye to this aspect of the game.
Myself I like watching skilled players play a skilled game. Not two people maiming each other in a fight which is not at all a part of regular play.
Hockey can certainly exist without the fighters. The fighters need to be out of work.
I enjoy watching skill players as well... And that's why I want enforcers to still be in the game. I don't want a guy like Torres running Eberle and RNH because they know there's no punishment coming. Like it or not, enforcers have their place. It's just good when you can find one that can take a regular shift
I enjoy watching skill players as well... And that's why I want enforcers to still be in the game. I don't want a guy like Torres running Eberle and RNH because they know there's no punishment coming. Like it or not, enforcers have their place. It's just good when you can find one that can take a regular shift
There never is any punishment coming. It's called the instigator rule.
In fact running RNH or Eberle in an effort to get someone like MacIntyre to do something stupid is a great idea. You just have to turtle, get saved by the refs and end up with a lengthy PP against the worst PK in the universe.
Hell, wasn't MacIntyre in the lineup at the end of the year when Torres decapitated Eberle?
I enjoy watching skill players as well... And that's why I want enforcers to still be in the game. I don't want a guy like Torres running Eberle and RNH because they know there's no punishment coming. Like it or not, enforcers have their place. It's just good when you can find one that can take a regular shift
If you want to limit goons, all you have to do is.....
Do like the AHL did/does? Only let a team play 11 forwards a night. In the postseason goons won't play anyway so you could then have 12 forwards a night.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
I enjoy watching skill players as well... And that's why I want enforcers to still be in the game. I don't want a guy like Torres running Eberle and RNH because they know there's no punishment coming. Like it or not, enforcers have their place. It's just good when you can find one that can take a regular shift
I'm fine with the NHL calling headshots and attempts to injure more closely. The thing is there were lots of enforcers and lots of fighting last year. It doesn't really impact the guys like Torres and they just keep throwing hits. If one can remotely believe the stats(and I'm not saying one can believe the hit stats) theres more hitting, and vicious hitting in the game than ever before.
This stops only when the NHL really tried to do something about it and on a consistent basis.
Sadly, once a person gets to the point where they decide to take their own life, usually their opinion is that they're doing their family a favour by not existing.
Some serious discussions need to be had within the NHL and the NHLPA about fighting in the game. I'm not sure I advocate removing it as of now, but I'm beginning to go down that route.
More importantly though, I really think the NHL and the NHLPA need to get talking about depression and/or life after hockey. Depression is a very serious issue that needs to be dealt with, and life after hockey is something that a lot of players don't particularly plan for until it suddenly hits them. Taking the only thing some of these guys know out of their life is a big shock, and maybe the NHL and the PA need to do a better job of giving their retired players the tools to deal with the issues.
I too believe fighting belongs in the game, but only if it comes about from a hockey play. One teammate sticking up for another, someone defending themselves, or a scrum that escalates in to a scrap. What doesn't belong is two "nuclear deterrants' pairing off right from the faceoff. How can this be deterred? maybe a minimum # of minutes played for dressed players? It wouldnt have to be a ton, say 7 minutes, but enough to deter coaches from wasting a bench spot on a guy like Big Mac who is only good for 2 minutes a game
I follow what you're stating, and its well expressed, but theres some points here that I find interesting and that might inspire me to write a thread engaging in this outside of this thread.
My hope is also that a discussion on the relative merits of fighting and its impacts can occur in another thread making this more of a Wade Belak thread.
I'll call the thread something like "Taking a closer look at hockey fighting and its impacts".
Life sometimes becomes a journey worth passing on, in almost any walk of life. It's unfortunate that with all the resources they have available to them with the NHL and their families in their corner, that they still chose to relieve themselves of this burden called life.
I don't mean to be rude, but how does someone accidentally hang themselves? If you got the rope and tighten the noose, it's pretty clear what your intentions are.
"...but how does someone accidentally hang themselves?"
Quite easily and sadly I am sure it happens quite a lot. I think a number of Belak's friends are now tweeting that they are saying it was not intentional which may lend credence to this idea of accidental hanging.
Look up erotic asphyxiation. Admittedly this is a leap of logic with the limited facts and I don't mean to smear his name, but it may make some sense. A well-balanced, family man with nil history of depression and excited about the next career step ends up being found the way he was.
There may be a better explanation but I am still looking for it.
Not to be rude but speculations already happening so it may as well here as well.
I don't buy the accidential aphyxiation angle and I think its a well meaning attempt to make it look like it wasn't suicide.
A couple other points.
You can't always tell if someone is even profoundly depressive. Many people have an ability to persevere and mask this to the outside world. Husbands and Wives often don't even know if their partner is clinically depressed.
The comments about the person not being suicidal because "thats the funniest guy I know" as if humor runs counter to depression is wrong. Some of the funniest guys ARE clinical depressives and some have taken their lives. A lot of comedians are actually depressed individuals. Humor being a coping skill they quickly learned.
From Red Skelton to Jerry Lewis to Jim Carrey, Owen Wilson, Rodney Dangerfield, Ben Stiller, Robin Williams, Richard Pryor, Woody Allen, Conan O Brien, Johhny Carson, Mark Twain, Britney Spears..just to name a few.
Reads like a who's who of comedy.
Last edited by Replacement: 09-03-2011 at 12:17 PM.
