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Old
09-02-2011, 02:18 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by MPStoEberletoHall View Post
whys that?
in juniors when their captain died bailey took over as the leader in the locker room and everyone looked up to him and they also had great chemistry together on the ice, i wish bailey stayed with the spitfires for just one more year at least, he would've captained the championship team

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09-02-2011, 02:21 PM
  #27
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Whitney is solid, he is the leader of their defense much like Streit for us. we cant get him

Gilber is an okay defender who is seriously miscast on their 1st pair, he'd be much better as a number 4 with a proper partner

I wouldnt move Bailey or a first for him though, given his contract status best id do is a 2nd

on our team hed be a 5, because pairing him with Streit, is the same as pairing him with Whiitney, and Hamonic and Amac are a perfect 2nd pair, so by default Gilbert would be our #5 (though he's definitely better than that......its just due to our situation)

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09-02-2011, 02:38 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
on our team hed be a 5, because pairing him with Streit, is the same as pairing him with Whiitney, and Hamonic and Amac are a perfect 2nd pair, so by default Gilbert would be our #5 (though he's definitely better than that......its just due to our situation)
what if streit started the season on the second pairing, he hasn't played in over a year so it might not be a bad idea

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09-02-2011, 03:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Whitney is solid, he is the leader of their defense much like Streit for us. we cant get him

Gilber is an okay defender who is seriously miscast on their 1st pair, he'd be much better as a number 4 with a proper partner

I wouldnt move Bailey or a first for him though, given his contract status best id do is a 2nd

on our team hed be a 5, because pairing him with Streit, is the same as pairing him with Whiitney, and Hamonic and Amac are a perfect 2nd pair, so by default Gilbert would be our #5 (though he's definitely better than that......its just due to our situation)
I'll probably get throttled by the rest of Edmonton but I would trade you Gilbert and a 2nd round pick for your first pick in 2012!!!!

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09-02-2011, 04:16 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by whitty View Post
I'll probably get throttled by the rest of Edmonton but I would trade you Gilbert and a 2nd round pick for your first pick in 2012!!!!
wouldnt dream of it

2 2nds arent worth a high 1st

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09-02-2011, 04:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
what if streit started the season on the second pairing, he hasn't played in over a year so it might not be a bad idea
still not a good idea, there are a number of great defenseman in next years draft

Ryan Murray,
Griffin Reinhart,
Mathew Dumba,
Nick Ebert,
Adam Pelech,
Jacob Trouba,
Dominic Poulin,
Derrick Pouliot,
Olli Määttä

All are considered to be definite first pairing types, though i Love what Reinhart and Pelech bring best. I want one of them way before Gilbert,and if we finish in the top 5 again we could get 2..

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09-02-2011, 04:29 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
Whitney is solid, he is the leader of their defense much like Streit for us. we cant get him

Gilber is an okay defender who is seriously miscast on their 1st pair, he'd be much better as a number 4 with a proper partner

I wouldnt move Bailey or a first for him though, given his contract status best id do is a 2nd

on our team hed be a 5, because pairing him with Streit, is the same as pairing him with Whiitney, and Hamonic and Amac are a perfect 2nd pair, so by default Gilbert would be our #5 (though he's definitely better than that......its just due to our situation)
good post. Gilbert isn't anything special for that money and frankly, Bailey's upside is still higher than what Gilbert would bring to the NYI. I'd keep Bailey. I don't think he has much market value but I still believe he can be a very valuable NHL player.

I know he's unproven, but I think deHaan will be as good as Gilbert is, even if he plays this year. Many of you haven't seen deHaan play but I suspect he'll win a job at camp and not look back. (This, in part, because of the horrible NYI defense, be SURE, but that doesn't take away from deHaan's ability IMO)

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09-02-2011, 04:35 PM
  #33
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good post. Gilbert isn't anything special for that money and frankly, Bailey's upside is still higher than what Gilbert would bring to the NYI. I'd keep Bailey. I don't think he has much market value but I still believe he can be a very valuable NHL player.

I know he's unproven, but I think deHaan will be as good as Gilbert is, even if he plays this year. Many of you haven't seen deHaan play but I suspect he'll win a job at camp and not look back. (This, in part, because of the horrible NYI defense, be SURE, but that doesn't take away from deHaan's ability IMO)
exactly, Garth loved his vision on Ice with Tavares back then and his poise, I can see him coming up like Hamonic did and making an impact

id still kill to get Reinhart though

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09-02-2011, 04:38 PM
  #34
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Can't see Snow dealing a first.

The Isles believe in Bailey more than some wish to think.

Don't forget Gilberts price tag.

Obviously no way the Oil are dealing both Gilbert and Whitney in the same deal where no comparable Dman is coming back.

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09-02-2011, 04:49 PM
  #35
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Sam Gagner is our Josh Bailey.

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09-03-2011, 01:53 AM
  #36
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every one rips gilbert because he isn't physical but he blocks tons a of shots, logs huge minutes, can play with any one, makes a great first pass and doesn't miss many games. His stats have been down b/c the oilers sucked so bad

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09-03-2011, 03:34 AM
  #37
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No way in hell would Islanders be willing to pay the price it would take to get Whitney. This is far from it.

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09-03-2011, 01:33 PM
  #38
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I'm going to repost a comment i had made about Gilbert awhile back:

"Gilbert is a fantastic defenseman. He gets run out for 25 minutes a night against the other teams top players and doesn't get killed. Other than the 4 Khabibulin starts in a row where Khabibulin got picked apart by the other teams top forwards for 26 goals, and Gilbert went -11, he was -3 for the rest of the year in the most possibly difficult circumstances. (BTW Khabibulin went on IR after those 4 starts, as he was the problem.) Behind the worst goalie in the league, on the worst team, playing excessive minutes against the other teams top players. And considering the Oilers got outscored by 76 goals that's very impressive, even his -14 doesn't look so bad considering the context. He was even better when Whitney went down so it's not like Whitney was "protecting" him either. 3 experienced NHL coaches in a row have given Gilbert the toughest minutes on the team, seems odd considering he's "brain-fart central". So as a longtime Oiler fan who watches the majority of the games i disagree."

In considering that, i'd say he is fairly paid. What do Top 4 d-man get on the open market? 4 mil is certainly in the range. Ask Komisarik, Erhoff, Martin, Michalek, Mitchell, Wiesniewski, Hainsey, ect... Some may be very different stylisticly, better/worse but together they paint a picture that says Gilbert is paid fairly.

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09-03-2011, 01:39 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I'm going to repost a comment i had made about Gilbert awhile back:

"Gilbert is a fantastic defenseman. He gets run out for 25 minutes a night against the other teams top players and doesn't get killed. Other than the 4 Khabibulin starts in a row where Khabibulin got picked apart by the other teams top forwards for 26 goals, and Gilbert went -11, he was -3 for the rest of the year in the most possibly difficult circumstances. (BTW Khabibulin went on IR after those 4 starts, as he was the problem.) Behind the worst goalie in the league, on the worst team, playing excessive minutes against the other teams top players. And considering the Oilers got outscored by 76 goals that's very impressive, even his -14 doesn't look so bad considering the context. He was even better when Whitney went down so it's not like Whitney was "protecting" him either. 3 experienced NHL coaches in a row have given Gilbert the toughest minutes on the team, seems odd considering he's "brain-fart central". So as a longtime Oiler fan who watches the majority of the games i disagree."

In considering that, i'd say he is fairly paid. What do Top 4 d-man get on the open market? 4 mil is certainly in the range. Ask Komisarik, Erhoff, Martin, Michalek, Mitchell, Wiesniewski, Hainsey, ect... Some may be very different stylisticly, better/worse but together they paint a picture that says Gilbert is paid fairly.
I still wouldnt give a high 2nd for him. on our team hes at best a number 4.

in regard to the bolded, thats nothing in 2008 the isles were way worse, outscored by 78 and Streit had no one, not even a Whitney. Streit was a plus 6


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09-03-2011, 01:40 PM
  #40
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Also Gilbert isn't "soft". He blocks a ton of shots, and eats a ton of pucks as the primary puck mover. I've never seen him bail out on a hit. He may not hit alot (it's more often than some people think), but neither does Lidstom. He has a strength and he plays to it, thats a good thing in my books. I really believe Gilbert holds alot more value to NHL GM's than he does on HFboards. I believe every single forward, or damn close, on the Oilers had a better scoring chance differential with him on the ice than without. And he plays primarly in a shutdown role. Big offensive defenseman who can play tough minutes if needed are very valuable. He may idealy be a 2nd pairing puck mover, but the fact that he isn't getting slaughtered in a role that doesn't fit his strengths should be considered a major plus, not a minus.

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09-03-2011, 01:45 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
I still wouldnt give a high 2nd for him. on our team hes at best a number 4
That's fair if you don't feel he fits a need, but he is certainly worth at least a 2nd IMO. Top 4 defenseman generally garner 1st rounders, at least. Unless they are salary dumps, and Gilbert is not IMO. I can understand the concern in moving that first rounder, especially for a d-man. Last time it was the year of the d-man (Doughty draft), a very high number of very good defenseman were drafted.

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09-03-2011, 02:09 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Also Gilbert isn't "soft". He blocks a ton of shots, and eats a ton of pucks as the primary puck mover. I've never seen him bail out on a hit. He may not hit alot (it's more often than some people think), but neither does Lidstom. He has a strength and he plays to it, thats a good thing in my books. I really believe Gilbert holds alot more value to NHL GM's than he does on HFboards. I believe every single forward, or damn close, on the Oilers had a better scoring chance differential with him on the ice than without. And he plays primarly in a shutdown role. Big offensive defenseman who can play tough minutes if needed are very valuable. He may idealy be a 2nd pairing puck mover, but the fact that he isn't getting slaughtered in a role that doesn't fit his strengths should be considered a major plus, not a minus.
I do give him credit, he goes out night after night for 25 minutes in a role hes not suited for, I grant that but he's still only a number 4, even if he's been forced to play first pairing

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09-03-2011, 02:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by oiler182 View Post
every one rips gilbert because he isn't physical but he blocks tons a of shots, logs huge minutes, can play with any one, makes a great first pass and doesn't miss many games. His stats have been down b/c the oilers sucked so bad
actually no part of the reason the oilers suck so bad is Gilbert.....he's a number 4 playing on your first pairing..... if you play a guy out of position your team actually looks worse than it should

look at it this way, if you had Shea Weber and Ryan Suter, but you played them as your #7 and #8 defenders how much better would the team be? its damaging to put a player in over his head, it destroys the player.Gilbert if he had played where he belonged would be a much better player

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09-03-2011, 02:26 PM
  #44
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I do give him credit, he goes out night after night for 25 minutes in a role hes not suited for, I grant that but he's still only a number 4, even if he's been forced to play first pairing
How do you figure? Boston's last two regular #2 defenseman have been Seidenberg (before Chara his rep. was much worse) and Wideman, i'd say Gilbert is as good as either of those guys. He can for sure anchor a 2nd pairing. Souray had one of his best seasons playing with him, and they were very often playing top opposition. Gilbert scored 45 points that year. The only other time he has been paired with another bonafide Top 4 defenseman was after Whitney came to the Oilers at the deadline (last year they were split up due to poor depth), and i believe he scored almost a ppg in those 19 games. The fact is he is much better than the numbers show, as he has not been getting adequete help in his role. When he has, he's looked like a top pairing defenseman. I don't think he's a #1, but if he isn't good enough to be a #2 it's not by much.

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09-03-2011, 02:40 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
How do you figure? Boston's last two regular #2 defenseman have been Seidenberg (before Chara his rep. was much worse) and Wideman, i'd say Gilbert is as good as either of those guys. He can for sure anchor a 2nd pairing. Souray had one of his best seasons playing with him, and they were very often playing top opposition. Gilbert scored 45 points that year. The only other time he has been paired with another bonafide Top 4 defenseman was after Whitney came to the Oilers at the deadline (last year they were split up due to poor depth), and i believe he scored almost a ppg in those 19 games. The fact is he is much better than the numbers show, as he has not been getting adequete help in his role. When he has, he's looked like a top pairing defenseman. I don't think he's a #1, but if he isn't good enough to be a #2 it's not by much.
you answered your own Question:

" Seidenberg (before Chara his rep. was much worse) and Wideman, "

every where they've been other than With Chara they were 2nd pairing calibur defensemen, but with the 6'8" monster that is Chara, they can be a first pairing defender, your sweet grandma probably could be too. are you gonna tell Zdeno personally that she cant be?

if you do make sure im not in the room, i get squeamish at the sight of Mashed human being

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09-03-2011, 02:55 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
you answered your own Question:

" Seidenberg (before Chara his rep. was much worse) and Wideman, "

every where they've been other than With Chara they were 2nd pairing calibur defensemen, but with the 6'8" monster that is Chara, they can be a first pairing defender, your sweet grandma probably could be too. are you gonna tell Zdeno personally that she cant be?
My point was having adequet help goes a long way in determinig our opinions on a players value, especially on HF. It had nothing to do with Chara specificaly. Even Weber gets a noticable bump in his defensive stats when paired with Suter. Most fans on here would say Seidenberg is better than Gilbert, when thats not true. Whenever Gilbert has gotten help, and it's never been elite help, he has looked like a top pairing d-man. 2 average seasons on by far the worst team in the league, with inadequet help, has hurt the perception of his play way more than reasonable.

So based off your last comment, you'd agree with adequet help Gilbert would be percived to be a much better player, than just a "#4". Because i don't see how it hurts my argument. Playing the toughs with a rookie (Peckham), only proves that he is probably undervalued. Seidenberg playing the toughs with an elite defenseman, probably means he is overrated. The truth for either player probably lies in the middle.

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09-03-2011, 03:01 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
you answered your own Question:

" Seidenberg (before Chara his rep. was much worse) and Wideman, "

every where they've been other than With Chara they were 2nd pairing calibur defensemen, but with the 6'8" monster that is Chara, they can be a first pairing defender, your sweet grandma probably could be too. are you gonna tell Zdeno personally that she cant be?

if you do make sure im not in the room, i get squeamish at the sight of Mashed human being
Also, how do you figure that answers my question of, "Why is Gilbert only a top 4 defenseman"? The situation above is not applicable to Gilbert, in fact it's irrelevant. Who has he played with that his value would be hyperbolized? It's the opposite that is true with Gilbert.

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09-03-2011, 03:07 PM
  #48
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I still wouldnt give a high 2nd for him. on our team hes at best a number 4.

in regard to the bolded, thats nothing in 2008 the isles were way worse, outscored by 78 and Streit had no one, not even a Whitney. Streit was a plus 6
I just noticed your edit. What does Streit have to do with Gilbert?

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09-03-2011, 03:20 PM
  #49
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I just noticed your edit. What does Streit have to do with Gilbert?
nothing it was the bolded part of your statement

And considering the Oilers got outscored by 76 goals that's very impressive, even his -14 doesn't look so bad considering the context.


i was saying that if you wanted impressive Streits plus 6 on an even worse team is something way more impressive

re Gilbert though, I just said that its likely that if Gilbert had played 2nd pairing all along hed be a better overall defender,
The reason I see him as a 2nd pairing is he does have consistancy issues and he does get caught out of position often, he can play very well for a stretch and then have a very poor stretch, the level of consistancy is where i draw the line

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09-03-2011, 03:41 PM
  #50
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nothing it was the bolded part of your statement

And considering the Oilers got outscored by 76 goals that's very impressive, even his -14 doesn't look so bad considering the context.


i was saying that if you wanted impressive Streits plus 6 on an even worse team is something way more impressive

re Gilbert though, I just said that its likely that if Gilbert had played 2nd pairing all along hed be a better overall defender,
The reason I see him as a 2nd pairing is he does have consistancy issues and he does get caught out of position often, he can play very well for a stretch and then have a very poor stretch, the level of consistancy is where i draw the line
Yeah Streit is awesome, so what.lol. If he gets injured this year he'll be worth a 2nd next year as a "rental"(see Hemsky, Ales).lol jk.

He doesn't have any serios consistency issues, every player goes through slumps, Gilbert does so less often than most IMO. He is an excellent positional defenseman, every d-man is out of position sometimes, his defensive woes are limited to lack of physicality, and turnovers. Both are exaggerated, not all effective d-men are physical types, and he handles the puck alot. I don't even think most Gilbert haters would say he's positionaly weak, thats an area of strength for him. I respect your position, but i think your somewhat misinformed on Gilbert's areas of weakness, and your underrating him for the reasons I mentioned in comments 46+47.

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