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Kesler for Weber

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Old
09-03-2011, 08:15 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post
Yet in the playoffs Kesler scored 19 points in 25 games, whats your excuse for that?
And dominated against Nashvile with freaking Weber and Suter and then Rinnie behind them, I believ that guy is an Oiler fan so it's not a shocker to see him try and belittle Kesler.

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09-03-2011, 08:16 PM
  #77
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Kesler's contract is far more valuable to a team trying to be as close to the cap as possible

Plus, 4 more years of Kesler vs one more year of Weber?

BTW I love the people here who say "he would definitely re-sign in Vancouver, he's from B.C." yet people aren't allowed to say "he'll go to Vancouver as a free agent, he's from B.C."

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Old
09-03-2011, 09:02 PM
  #78
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I think Weber is a lot more valuable than Kesler. People have pointed out the contract and value for dollar already, but more important to me if I was Vancouver I'd be worried about next year's playoffs if I dished out Kesler. Considering the Sedin's weren't shining brightly you should have that in the back of your head--Kesler was the engine out there whether he was scoring or not. All heart. For a team in win-now mode I wouldn't take the chance that someone else could pick up the emotional slack Kesler would leave behind on top off his scoring. Surprising myself by agreeing with the canuck fans here.

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Old
09-03-2011, 09:15 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britton View Post
Yes Kesler played on the second line for Vancouver and you can't know for sure how he would play on the first line but I'd be willing to be bet you would actually see his points increase and let me explain why.

For four straight seasons not only has Kesler gotten better every year, he has also finished in the top five of adjusted corsi rating each time. This year he was second in adjusted corsi and first in raw corsi. Year after year he dominates his opposition no matter who it is when he is on the ice. Look at this year, he got easier minutes than last year but still nothing compared to what most top players get, and he put up 40 goals. You let him start in the offensive zone more often and give him more offensive opportunities and you'd see his numbers rise, not decrease even if he does face other top checkers. Just look at his PP numbers this year and last year. Two years in a row now he has been our most dangerous PP forward and he's played on two completely different units. When given the opportunity he's as dangerous as any of those guys on the list not named Crosby. I mean I see people say Datsyuk is a top 3 player all the time. While Datsyuk may have the dangles that make people go wow, Kesler does everything else Dats does and has actually out performed him over the last two years. So don't be so quick to write him off as a guy who gets protected on the second line.
He had 9 total goals against playoff teams last year. Nine.
He had 3 against Edmonton, 4 against Colorado, 7 against Minnesota, and 4 against Calgary. 18 Goals against the weakest division in hockey. Add in 4 vs Columbus, 3 vs Ottawa, and 1 each vs Toronto, NYI and New Jersey (while they were still losing) and those 40 goals look a lot less meaningful. Helps explain where that Corsi came from too - beating up the slow kids.

His Corsi also disappears every year in the playoffs when he plays nothing but quality teams.

In the playoffs this year he looked great against Nashville with 11 points in 6 games. However 5 of the 11 points came when Weber and Suter weren't on the ice (again, vs lesser competition). And his play against teams that actually had offensive threats in the other 3 series were a pretty pedestrian 8P in 19G. Kesler had ONE great offensive series in the playoffs that make it look like he performed offensively in every series, which he didn't.

I'm not saying he's not a quality center because he clearly is, but the statistics you pulled out indicate he probably would not do as well as a top line center where he would have to face higher quality players (because, well, he doesn't), and are not supportive of him being a top 10, much less a top 5 center.

To put things in perspective Datsyuk scored 16 of his 23 goals against playoff teams. In 53 games. And was pointless in 1 of 11 games in the playoffs vs 12 of 25 for Kesler. Against teams where it matters , Datsyuk shows up a lot better than Kesler does.

Please stop making me praise Wings players, it makes me feel dirty.


Back on topic - this is a bad trade for Vancouver even though they get the better player, doesn't fit their needs or their cap.

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Old
09-03-2011, 09:19 PM
  #80
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call me crazy but I wouldn't do this trade. I think our defense is fine without Weber. It would be significantly better with him, but to lose Kesler hurts our forward group too much.

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Old
09-03-2011, 09:58 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurley View Post
call me crazy but I wouldn't do this trade. I think our defense is fine without Weber. It would be significantly better with him, but to lose Kesler hurts our forward group too much.
I don't think that's crazy at all, you were only one win from the cup and still have a solid defense core, trading for Weber, especially at the cost of Kesler, would be counterproductive.

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Old
09-03-2011, 10:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
I am a canucks fan too, but how is kesler clearly better than backstrom?

He had a bad year, but we are talking about a 23 year old center who has already broken the 100 point barrier, and is pretty much ppg in the playoffs (32 pts in 37 gms)

Add the fact that Backstrom is actually very good defensively and plays in all situations.

I like kesler as much as any canucks fan, he's our leader and was our MVP in the playoffs, but kesler is not a top 5 center.
Yeah Backstrom had a bad year despite having certainly the most dynamic and i have believed for some time now the best hockey player in the world as his winger although OV hasn't figured it out in the PO yet.
If Kesler had OV as his winger and Backstrom had MR as his this whole discussion would not be taking place because it would be a joke......period. And Kesler is on a completely different level higher defensively than Backstrom as well it is evident he plays as hard as one can with great intensity when the games on the line.

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Old
09-03-2011, 11:31 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Yeah, Shea weber would probably make most teams worst eh?

Kesler = top twenty centreman in league

Weber = 2nd best defenseman in league! Second to one (Lidstrom)!

Predators only trade weber for a star forward.

Ducks could use Shea, while I would perry, Ryan, or getZlaf all over kesler
Fixed that for you.

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09-04-2011, 03:23 AM
  #84
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Go back and look at that list again, there is no way in hell that anyone would take 3/4 of those centers below kesler, not even close, go back to page 2 and look at those guys, i can't believe you could have the odacity to say kesler is better than 3/4 of those guys, brutal

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Originally Posted by jammyrft View Post
not sure what you're smoking but I'd put kesler over 3/4 of that list


crosby
stamkos
toews
datsyuk
kesler
malkin





a 2 way selke winning 40goal center doesn't come by often, how you have kopitar, giroux, backstrom etc ahead of him I don't know

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Old
09-04-2011, 03:23 AM
  #85
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kesler for suter is more equal value imo

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Old
09-04-2011, 04:59 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
He had 9 total goals against playoff teams last year. Nine.
He had 3 against Edmonton, 4 against Colorado, 7 against Minnesota, and 4 against Calgary. 18 Goals against the weakest division in hockey. Add in 4 vs Columbus, 3 vs Ottawa, and 1 each vs Toronto, NYI and New Jersey (while they were still losing) and those 40 goals look a lot less meaningful. Helps explain where that Corsi came from too - beating up the slow kids.

His Corsi also disappears every year in the playoffs when he plays nothing but quality teams.

In the playoffs this year he looked great against Nashville with 11 points in 6 games. However 5 of the 11 points came when Weber and Suter weren't on the ice (again, vs lesser competition). And his play against teams that actually had offensive threats in the other 3 series were a pretty pedestrian 8P in 19G. Kesler had ONE great offensive series in the playoffs that make it look like he performed offensively in every series, which he didn't.

I'm not saying he's not a quality center because he clearly is, but the statistics you pulled out indicate he probably would not do as well as a top line center where he would have to face higher quality players (because, well, he doesn't), and are not supportive of him being a top 10, much less a top 5 center.

To put things in perspective Datsyuk scored 16 of his 23 goals against playoff teams. In 53 games. And was pointless in 1 of 11 games in the playoffs vs 12 of 25 for Kesler. Against teams where it matters , Datsyuk shows up a lot better than Kesler does.

Please stop making me praise Wings players, it makes me feel dirty.


Back on topic - this is a bad trade for Vancouver even though they get the better player, doesn't fit their needs or their cap.
Yet he carried the team in the playoffs vs Nashvile and had 19 pts in 25 playoffs games vs Hawks, Preds, Sharks and Bruins. Yeah Kesler can't get it done with better team yet made Weber who some believe to be the best Damn in the NHL he's ***** and was lighting up Rinnie one of the top goalies. Kesler also has Raymond, Higgins and Sams as his linemates far less than what most other players have to work with. Also Nashvile coach went out and said they had no answer to Kesler.

Quote:
“Right now he’s their best player — bar none,” Nashville coach Barry Trotz said. “He’s the guy that’s their best player right now.”
Quote:
“He’s a good player,” Suter said. “We know he’s a good player. Whoever’s out there against him has to play hard.”

Quote:
“He’s a great skater and he has great puck control,” Nashville right wing Patric Hornqvist said. “He’s always coming full speed. It feels like he’s flying all the time. … He’s a good player and we have to shut him down next game to have a chance to win.”

Quote:
“He was a force the whole series,” Nashville coach Barry Trotz said of Kesler, adding he had a tough time finding a matchup for the scrappy Vancouver forward. “He had one of those series that was absolutely remarkable. If he doesn’t play that way we’re probably going to Game 7.”

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/conten...canucks-series

http://www.therecord.com/sports/hock...-out-predators
Yup Kesler sucks...



Kesler being a Canuck so I understand the hate he gets.


Last edited by BLAME CANADA*: 09-04-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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Old
09-04-2011, 05:11 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Just using him as example. He is the best forward in the league whole weber is best defenseman

I know Crosby is obviously more valuable than anyone
I may be in the minority, but I think Suter is better than Weber. So to me, he's not even the best defenseman on his own team, yet you have no problem labeling him the best defenseman in the league, when he has never been past the 2nd round, and has no individual awards.

Did you also think Phaneuf was the best in 2008?

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09-04-2011, 05:24 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Yeah, Shea weber would probably make most teams worst eh?

Kesler = top twenty centreman in league

Weber = best defenseman in league! Second to none!

Predators only trade weber for a star forward.

Ducks could use Shea, while I would perry, Ryan, or getZlaf all over kesler
FAIL!!!! Best in the league is a stretch. Norris caliber yes, not best in the league

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Old
09-04-2011, 05:25 AM
  #89
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So it's pretty obvious Vancouver isn't trading Kesler and his wonderful contract for Weber and his questionable situation.

NSH is either going to look like a strong contender or a lottery team this time next year...it all depends on Suter and Rinne. NSH should know if they should start re-building by the trade deadline.

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Old
09-04-2011, 09:30 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Respect Your Edler View Post
Weber doesn't have a contract and that really hurts his value. Nahville won't be able to get proven quality for a year and a half of Weber.
Yes we would. It would just have to be proven quality who is in the same situation.

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09-04-2011, 09:40 AM
  #91
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If you're talking straight up value, I think Vancouver also has to throw in (at least) a blue chip prospect to make it a plausible trade.

I don't think Vancouver has the room or the need for Weber unless they also get rid of one of Bieksa, Hamhuis, Ballard or Edler.

Not a bad trade proposal though.

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09-04-2011, 10:01 AM
  #92
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The Canucks certainly have the need and would make room for Weber but not at the expense of Kesler.

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09-04-2011, 11:55 AM
  #93
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Well he was nominated this year for Norris trophy and the other two who were nominated where both well over 30 years of age. Weber still has room to even grow more and get even better. Shea also does not get the recognition guys like lidstrom and chara get playing in Nashville as opposed to big time hockey cities like Detroit and Boston.

I agreed that kesler for weber makes no sense for canucks based on their current team.

But all that kesler/weber talk aside, if you could build a team around any defenseman in the league right now, who would u chose?


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FAIL!!!! Best in the league is a stretch. Norris caliber yes, not best in the league

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Old
09-04-2011, 11:56 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Ok. So in principal weber is worth more, but seeing vancouvers situation with no replacement for kesler then it makes no sense for them to acquire Shea if kesler is piece going back to Nashville. I just never really thought of vancouvers defense as stellar, but i understand losing kesler creates a huge hole for Canucks,
So therefore if it's a weber trade, Vancouver and Nashville are not good partners
Our defense isn't stellar, but in today's league it would be considered deep and better than average. Nashville's defense would be considered stellar. You have three ligitimate NHL calibre #1 defensemen in a very deep and young defense plus one excellent #1 goalie. Vancouver has no NHL calibre #1 defensemen (Edler if he keeps developing is only about a year away though), but we have three ligitimate NHL calibre #2 defensemen (Hamhuis, Edler & Salo), one #3 defensemen (Bieksa) & one #4 defenseman (Ballard), two good #6 defensemen, a good crop of young defense prospects and two excellent goal tenders plus a third excellent goal tending prospect.

Weber would improve the Canucks backend but not by that much. Adding Weber doesn't fill a defensive hole, he would just push the current Canuck roster players one notch back. The the team at the most may see two areas of improvement. The first area of improvement would be adding the #1D skills a ligitmate #1D like Weber would bring when replacing Hamhuis or Edler who are #2D's being used at the #1D position. A likely improvement, but not the substantial improvement that filling a defensive hole would bring.

The second area of improvement the team may gain at would come from using Ballard and either Salo or Kesler in the #5D & #6D positions rather than Ballard and either Rome or Alberts. As both Rome, Alberts and even Tanev are very competant defensemen when playing the lessor minutes of a third pairing, I actually see very little gain to the Canucks in shifting them out of the lineup. If anything it may send a negative signal to our young prospects by saying there is no vacancy in the Canuck lineup so expect to stay in the AHL for some time.

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09-04-2011, 12:33 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Well he was nominated this year for Norris trophy and the other two who were nominated where both well over 30 years of age. Weber still has room to even grow more and get even better. Shea also does not get the recognition guys like lidstrom and chara get playing in Nashville as opposed to big time hockey cities like Detroit and Boston.

I agreed that kesler for weber makes no sense for canucks based on their current team.

But all that kesler/weber talk aside, if you could build a team around any defenseman in the league right now, who would u chose?
I agree with a lot of points you made in this thread, but to answer your question, I would build a team around duncan keith before shea weber.

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09-04-2011, 12:46 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Our defense isn't stellar, but in today's league it would be considered deep and better than average. Nashville's defense would be considered stellar. You have three ligitimate NHL calibre #1 defensemen in a very deep and .....
weber, suter, and ?

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09-04-2011, 12:50 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Well he was nominated this year for Norris trophy and the other two who were nominated where both well over 30 years of age. Weber still has room to even grow more and get even better. Shea also does not get the recognition guys like lidstrom and chara get playing in Nashville as opposed to big time hockey cities like Detroit and Boston.

I agreed that kesler for weber makes no sense for canucks based on their current team.

But all that kesler/weber talk aside, if you could build a team around any defenseman in the league right now, who would u chose?
Ok going off your first statement.
Kesler has come 2nd Twice to Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke trophy and beat out pretty damn good competition this year.
So by my count, that's 3 award nominations to Weber's one.

Now some will say but the best defenseman is harder to win than any forward's award. But the Selke is for the best Defensive forward, which isn't an easy feat to accomplish. Especially when you go up against guys like Pavel Datsyuk, John Toews, and so on.


This whole discussion has flaws on each end, and each party can argue till the sun rises n falls each day about who's got more value.


To answer your question, who I'd choose to build my team around for Dmen, itd be Doughty. Hands down.
Drew is more dynamic and is much younger still than Weber. Giving him even more potential and the ability to not only be the best dmen, but he still has the potential to be the best player. (How likely that is, is fairly debatable) but my point is, Weber isn't the end all discussions when saying young Dmen with potential.

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09-04-2011, 12:55 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
kesler for suter is more equal value imo
do people here really know nothing about actual "value" here?

for anyone that thinks that the value of a player who hits UFA status at the end of the year is remotely close to the value of a star player signed long-term at below market value, you need to learn more about this game.

For all those people that don't have a grasp on "value" - an asset's value is impacted by their contract more than anything else! A player like Kesler, signed for 5yrs through his prime years, at below the cap hit of similar impact players, is worth a HELL OF A LOT MORE than a great player who is about to hit UFA status at the end of this season.

At this point, Kesler's *VALUE* exceeds that of Weber - 2 years from UFA status, is a RFA after this season, and comes with a cap hit of $2.5mill more than Kesler.

Contracts not considered: Weber > Kesler.

Weber on a long-term deal at $1-2mill more than Kesler > Kesler longterm deal at $5mill.

Kesler signed for 5yrs at $5mill/yr > Weber on 1yr at $7.5mill and 2yrs from UFA status.

Kesler signed for 5yrs at $5mill/yr >>> Suter hitting UFA status at the end of this season!


In a salary cap era, where every bit of cap space counts, and FA returns average 2nd line players making over $4mill/yr (think Fleishmann, Leino, Ward, etc), a top end player coming off a 40-goal Selke season, signed through his prime years at $5mill/yr for the next 5 season, is worth gold! No team in the league would deal that for Weber, let alone Suter! To suggest that the value is even close there is ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding about the salary cap and actual values of players in a salary capped league!


I'm really shocked at how little some fans understand the importance of a long-term contract, with a low cap hit. Especially so coming from fans of a team who's built on a budget and has had problems retaining their star players under the salary cap. You'd think they'd understand how easily they could lose Weber for nothing in FA and how much value a player like Kesler in his prime, with his contract, would have. Apparently the salary cap is still a new concept for some people?

Like every Canuck fan has already said - I wouldn't touch a Kesler for Weber deal. I would rather take my chances in 2 years and try and sign Weber as a FA, and keep Kesler! Especially as the cap keeps going up, a contract like Kesler's keeps getting more valuable... and a situation like Weber's will keep getting more costly.

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09-04-2011, 01:09 PM
  #99
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Value-wise it works but the Canucks are a worse team with Weber than with Kesler.

The downgrade from Kesler to Hodgson is a lot bigger than the upgrade given by Weber considering our D right now is pretty solid without him.

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09-04-2011, 01:30 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Hurley View Post
weber, suter, and ?
SOB obviously

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