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What to do with Hamrlik?

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08-17-2004, 01:06 PM
  #26
Capt Reynolds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I don't think the potential for a salary cap is really the issue here. The Isles have a budget and they probably need to stick to it. From what I can see, signing Hamrlik will probably doable in the short term, but I'm not really sure what the longterm picture is going to be.
Very good point, Darth. IMHO, in the short term Milbury keeps the team more or less as is, shuffling around minor parts here and there like the Wiemer, Ronning and Czerkawski moves. Longer term (i.e., within the next two to three years), the three biggest players to impact what we look like are Oakie, Rick and Peca.

Oakie, what happens to him impacts the rest of our blueliners. He is our best Dman, and the Isles preference would be to keep him even at the expense of one of our other Big 4. if he is willing to forego free agency and sign longterm, will command at least $5million per. If we keep him, one of the other top 4 will go. If he does not want to sign a longterm deal, he could be gone by the trade deadline if we're just clinging to the 8th spot or certainly through free agency, at which point we may be able to afford Hammer longterm (and certainly we would need him!).

Rick -- if he goes supernova like Milbury believes, the Rick could be in for a huge pay raise in the not too distant future. If he becomes a $4-5million or more player, someone will have to go to make room for that.

Peca -- his contract expires after the 2005 season, I believe. There is no way he comes back to the Isles at anything close to what we are now paying him. Do we just let him walk? If so, that cuts $5million from our payroll.


Last edited by Capt Reynolds: 08-17-2004 at 01:13 PM.
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08-17-2004, 01:11 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Very good point, Darth. IMHO, in the short term Milbury keeps the team more or less as is, shuffling around minor parts here and there like the Wiemer, Ronning and Czerkawski moves. Longer term (i.e., within the next two to three years), the three biggest players to impact what we look like are Oakie, Rick and Peca.

Oakie, what happens to him impacts the rest of our blueliners. He is our best Dman, and the Isles preference would be to keep him even at the expense of one of our other Big 4. if he is willing to forego free agency and sign longterm, will command at least $5million per. If we keep him, one of the other top 4 will go. If he does not want to sign a longterm deal, he could be gone by the trade deadline if we're just clinging to the 8th spot or certainly through free agency, at which point we may be able to afford Hammer longterm (and certainly we would need him!).

Rick -- if he goes supernova like Milbury believes, the Rick could be in for a huge pay raise in the not too distant future. If he becomes a $4-5million or more player, someone will have to go to make room for that.

Peca -- his contract expires after the 2005 season, I believe. There is no way he comes back to the Isles at anything close to what we are now paying him. Do we just let him walk? If so, that cuts $5million from our payroll.

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08-17-2004, 01:16 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Oakie, what happens to him impacts the rest of our blueliners. He is our best Dman, and the Isles preference would be to keep him even at the expense of one of our other Big 4. if he is willing to forego free agency and sign longterm, will command at least $5million per. If we keep him, one of the other top 4 will go. If he does not want to sign a longterm deal, he could be gone by the trade deadline if we're just clinging to the 8th spot or certainly through free agency, at which point we may be able to afford Hammer longterm (and certainly we would need him!).

Peca -- his contract expires after the 2006 season, I believe. There is no way he comes back to the Isles at anything close to what we are now paying him. Do we just let him walk? If so, that cuts $5million from our payroll.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on both these points. First, I haven't seen any evidence that the Isles are looking to sign Aucoin to a longterm deal. I'm not saying that isn't what they want, and I certainly would like to see that myself. But, I have not read anything that would suggest any ongoing negotiations.

I also don't agree that Aucoin will be gone by the deadline if he isn't signed. Personally I think that, if the Isles are in contention, they will keep Adrian and let him walk as UFA. I would also disagree (quite strongly in fact) with the suggestion that he is our best dman.

As for Peca, I'm guessing that 5 million a year would more than do it if he wanted to sign longterm (and I'm not sure he does). We're talking about a 40 - 50 point center here. He is still elite defensively, but offesive numbers tend to have a bigger impact on salaries than anything else.

The bottom line for me: Longterm, there are a lot of questions and we will have to wait to see how things play out (particularly in terms of the new CBA) before we make conclusions. Shorterm, I don't expect much of anything to happen, with the exception of new contracts for Hamrlik and the Rick. On the other hand, I make no promises and I am quite prepared to be wrong about all of this.

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08-17-2004, 01:38 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on both these points. First, I haven't seen any evidence that the Isles are looking to sign Aucoin to a longterm deal. I'm not saying that isn't what they want, and I certainly would like to see that myself. But, I have not read anything that would suggest any ongoing negotiations.

I also don't agree that Aucoin will be gone by the deadline if he isn't signed. Personally I think that, if the Isles are in contention, they will keep Adrian and let him walk as UFA. I would also disagree (quite strongly in fact) with the suggestion that he is our best dman.

As for Peca, I'm guessing that 5 million a year would more than do it if he wanted to sign longterm (and I'm not sure he does). We're talking about a 40 - 50 point center here. He is still elite defensively, but offesive numbers tend to have a bigger impact on salaries than anything else.
I was not altogether clear in what I wrote about Peca, my bad. When I said there's no way he comes back for anything close to what we're now paying him, I didn't mean Peca would want more money, I meant we would want to pay him less. I agree entirely that despite his still-elite defense it's points that equal dollars, and he just has not gotten it done in that regard for two seasons. There's no way the Islanders would want to bring him back for anything close to $5million, they would want a significant reduction in salary to bring him back.

As for Aucoin, if we think we have a real shot at making noise at the deadline Aucoin will stay. However, if we are just in a fight for the eighth spot with no real shot at making noise in the playoffs I would not be surprised to see Oakie gone if we get a good offer for him.

Just wondering, who do you think is our best defender? KJ? I think all things considered AA is our best all-around defender. Jonsson is better defensively (although not by that much IMHO) but does not provide the offense Oakie does and totally lacks any physical presence. Hammer is more skilled offensively despite his downyear last season, but is not as reliable and has a tendency to coast too often. And it definitely ain't Janne. I don't think Oakie is the best at any one skill but all things considered is our most well-rounded defender.

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08-17-2004, 01:53 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Just wondering, who do you think is our best defender? KJ? I think all things considered AA is our best all-around defender. Jonsson is better defensively (although not by that much IMHO) but does not provide the offense Oakie does and totally lacks any physical presence. Hammer is more skilled offensively despite his downyear last season, but is not as reliable and has a tendency to coast too often. And it definitely ain't Janne. I don't think Oakie is the best at any one skill but all things considered is our most well-rounded defender.

In terms of pure skill, I'd actually rate Aucoin as our number 4. He was our default number 1 last year because he works his butt off. Its hard not to admire his attitude. He can eat up huge minutes because he is always psyched up for a shift. And, yeah, I agree that he is not elite in any skill but the total package gets the job done.

In terms of skill and all around game, I'd say Hamrlik is our number 1. But, you are right that he is not always "on" and gets into long funks. he doens't have Aucoin's work ethic.

In terms of pure effectiveness, I'd probably go with KJ, who is smarter and better positionally than any defensemen on the team.

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08-17-2004, 01:56 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on both these points. First, I haven't seen any evidence that the Isles are looking to sign Aucoin to a longterm deal. I'm not saying that isn't what they want, and I certainly would like to see that myself. But, I have not read anything that would suggest any ongoing negotiations

Darth did we get any indication that Janne would sign long term? No we did not! AA could very well get a long term deal.

I also don't agree that Aucoin will be gone by the deadline if he isn't signed. Personally I think that, if the Isles are in contention, they will keep Adrian and let him walk as UFA. I would also disagree (quite strongly in fact) with the suggestion that he is our best dman.

AA is indeed our overall best dman

As for Peca, I'm guessing that 5 million a year would more than do it if he wanted to sign longterm (and I'm not sure he does). We're talking about a 40 - 50 point center here. He is still elite defensively, but offesive numbers tend to have a bigger impact on salaries than anything else.

The bottom line for me: Longterm, there are a lot of questions and we will have to wait to see how things play out (particularly in terms of the new CBA) before we make conclusions. Shorterm, I don't expect much of anything to happen, with the exception of new contracts for Hamrlik and the Rick. On the other hand, I make no promises and I am quite prepared to be wrong about all of this.
Hopefully we can get everyone signed and Wang gets us a top winger

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08-17-2004, 02:04 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1
Hopefully we can get everyone signed and Wang gets us a top winger


That would be great. Frankly, if we go everybody signed, and let players like Weinhandl and Hunter develop, I could live with that as well. I just hope we don't start letting guys walk as UFAs.

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08-18-2004, 10:07 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
In terms of pure skill, I'd actually rate Aucoin as our number 4. He was our default number 1 last year because he works his butt off. Its hard not to admire his attitude. He can eat up huge minutes because he is always psyched up for a shift. And, yeah, I agree that he is not elite in any skill but the total package gets the job done.

In terms of skill and all around game, I'd say Hamrlik is our number 1. But, you are right that he is not always "on" and gets into long funks. he doens't have Aucoin's work ethic.

In terms of pure effectiveness, I'd probably go with KJ, who is smarter and better positionally than any defensemen on the team.
KJ is our smartest player and is the best at positional play, I agree. And Hammer has the most skill but his moodiness keeps him from reaching his potential (although he's still a very good Dman). I give the edge to Adrian because of how hard he plays every shift and the whole Ironman thing, but I can see a case to be made for either KJ or Hammer.

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08-18-2004, 11:55 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
In terms of pure skill, I'd actually rate Aucoin as our number 4. He was our default number 1 last year because he works his butt off. Its hard not to admire his attitude. He can eat up huge minutes because he is always psyched up for a shift. And, yeah, I agree that he is not elite in any skill but the total package gets the job done.

In terms of skill and all around game, I'd say Hamrlik is our number 1. But, you are right that he is not always "on" and gets into long funks. he doens't have Aucoin's work ethic.

In terms of pure effectiveness, I'd probably go with KJ, who is smarter and better positionally than any defensemen on the team.
I agree with you, but I think that Aucoin is #1 in effectiveness as well, although Kenny Jonsson is one hell of a defenseman. But I think that Aucoin's +/- shows that when he is on the ice (and he is on the ice an awful lot) the other team does not score, which is the primary function of a defenseman.

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08-18-2004, 03:21 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
...it's points that equal dollars, and he just has not gotten it done in that regard for two seasons. There's no way the Islanders would want to bring him back for anything close to $5million, they would want a significant reduction in salary to bring him back.
Not directed at the poster, but...

Point #1: This is a recording: Peca had his knee shredded in the spring of '02. Odd that some fans simply gloss over this fact. These are human beings. It takes time. No "excuses" from this fan for the upcoming season onward, but some (ingrates) make it sound like #27 should have stepped on the ice in fall '02 and picked up just where he left off. Let's get real with what the expectations for him over the last two seasons should have been. Certainly NYI is.

Point #2: Peca has two years left on his contract. Two seasons to improve his offensive production. Waaay premature to suggest that he doesn't deserve such and such in his next deal. but, of course, that is the M.O. on HF...getting ahead of ourselves. As if Nillson, this year's #1, Mapletoft or some other unknown quantity is just going to step in and provide what Peca does? Please.

The urgency in which a few NYI fans pass off the value of NYI Captain is unfortunate. But then again, not use to gritty, productive winners (as in: captain of a Cup Finalist in '99; Gold Medalist) on Long Island in recent decades.

You get the team you deserve.

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08-18-2004, 04:00 PM
  #36
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Yeah, I think all those inpatient Islander fans who weren't willing to let management build slowly toward a winner haven't gotten the team they deserve. And, all those fans who kept screaming for players like Yashin and Peca while others (like myself) urged a focus on developing Luongo, Chara, etc have gotten what they deserve.

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08-18-2004, 05:01 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
And, all those fans who kept screaming for players like Yashin and Peca...
What's the timetable for winning? Been awaiting your answer for 3+ years. Instead we get that Hamrlik is too expensive to keep, Aucoin will walk as a FA next summer, and this team really can't compete for anything this season. Pining for yet another youth movement?

And that Tim Connelly/Pyatt jauggernaut would have brought home the silver by now, eh?

Reality is, they'd be 10 seasons and counting without even a playoff appearance.

Real simple. The goal, the end game, the objective, of a select few NYI fans remains to collect as many homegrown children as possible. For those fans wish to be "a winning team for many years"...meanwhile they are incapable of providing a hint, a timetable, of when the kids will lead the team to any success - even a playoff appearance - just once!

The goal of others of us is to win the Stanley Cup. Be it with 80 year olds or a collection of PeeWees.

Just put the best talent together. At this point in time, for NYI, it means adding talent - homegrown or from outside - to the collection they have now. (Anything less will not render meaningful results; just ongoing first-round losses.) Not tearing it down and getting rid of gamers like Peca. (Oh, but he is 30. Time to discard him! )

And, sorry, this fan is not re-living mistakes from years ago. Life's too short. Got to move forward.

No this is not the NYI team you deserve Darth. Your's apparently was the one circa '99, what with TC as your #1 center, etc.

My NYI team was the 2001-02 version. Since then, they decided that the status quo is sufficent. As such, they've lost me to a great extent. Sure, there is the blind optimism that goes with being a fan. Tempered with the reality that (motivated) talent ultimately wins out. So all the talk about this salary cap or this high contract is a nice sideshow. Fact is, you don't have the talent, you don't win. And you don't go out and acquire Peca, Yashin, Aucoin, etc. without making the commitment to taking it further.

That remains a much, much more preferrable option over going back to the good old days of the mid- to late-90s, when Long Island was home to a Junior/AHL team of prospects.

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08-18-2004, 05:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
What's the timetable for winning? Been awaiting your answer for 3+ years. Instead we get that Hamrlik is too expensive to keep, Aucoin will walk as a FA next summer, and this team really can't compete for anything this season. Pining for yet another youth movement?

And that Tim Connelly/Pyatt jauggernaut would have brought home the silver by now, eh?

Reality is, they'd be 10 seasons and counting without even a playoff appearance.

Real simple. The goal, the end game, the objective, of a select few NYI fans remains to collect as many homegrown children as possible. For those fans wish to be "a winning team for many years"...meanwhile they are incapable of providing a hint, a timetable, of when the kids will lead the team to any success - even a playoff appearance - just once!

The goal of others of us is to win the Stanley Cup. Be it with 80 year olds or a collection of PeeWees.

Just put the best talent together. At this point in time, for NYI, it means adding talent - homegrown or from outside - to the collection they have now. (Anything less will not render meaningful results; just ongoing first-round losses.) Not tearing it down and getting rid of gamers like Peca. (Oh, but he is 30. Time to discard him! )

And, sorry, this fan is not re-living mistakes from years ago. Life's too short. Got to move forward.

No this is not the NYI team you deserve Darth. Your's apparently was the one circa '99, what with TC as your #1 center, etc.

My NYI team was the 2001-02 version. Since then, they decided that the status quo is sufficent. As such, they've lost me to a great extent. Sure, there is the blind optimism that goes with being a fan. Tempered with the reality that (motivated) talent ultimately wins out. So all the talk about this salary cap or this high contract is a nice sideshow. Fact is, you don't have the talent, you don't win. And you don't go out and acquire Peca, Yashin, Aucoin, etc. without making the commitment to taking it further.

That remains a much, much more preferrable option over going back to the good old days of the mid- to late-90s, when Long Island was home to a Junior/AHL team of prospects.

Its easy to point to TC/Pyatt, while neglecting Luongo, Chara, et al. The team that we would have had if we had simply developed our youth patiently would be far stronger (and also far less exepensive) then the team we have right now. You are right that "my team" would have had TC and Pyatt instead of Yashin and Peca. In fact, my team would have had Biron instead of Aucoin. It would have also had Chara, Luongo, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Berard, etc.

As for the timetable thing, what do you expect to happen? You can't get blood from a turnip. With a 45 million payroll, the Isles don't have the $ to sign UFAs. And, it isn't like other teams are giving away the solid banging dman, or the winger for Yashin that the Isles need. There isn't any viable way to add the sort of high profile vets you would like to see on the Island. Simply put, the strategy of trying to make yourself an instant contender by trading away young assets for vets does not work. You can only go so far with that approach. Now, the cupboard is bare and we don't have the assets, in terms of talent or $ to take the next step.

BTW, which of the teams that won the cup in recent years did it with a core composed entirely of veterans acquired in trades? No team in NHL history has ever won the cup using the strategy you suggest. Building patiently with youth is the path to the cup. The "instant team" approach the Isles used is the route to year-after-year of first round exits.


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08-18-2004, 05:32 PM
  #39
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maybe atlanta could use him. he would be a good fit there, if he came a bit cheaper probably

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08-18-2004, 05:44 PM
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I think the Isles will sign him to a longterm contract instead of trading him. They don't have the depth to give him up right now.

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08-19-2004, 01:39 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Its easy to point to TC/Pyatt, while neglecting Luongo, Chara, et al.

I'm not neglecting them! You specifically mentioned Peca as a mistake deal, as you do again in this post! That's why the reference to TC/Pyatt. Of course, Luongo and Bertuzzi/McCabe were lousy deals. And, in hindsight, so too was Chara/Spezza, by way of Yashin's ridiculous contract and the fact that they have surrounded him with B-rate talent. (And I am no fan of #79s). But the idea that any time you trade a younger player is a bad move is ridiculous, IMO.

That's called absolutism, dogma or strict ideology (which you clearly embrace by offering up that you'd prefer Biron over Aucoin ). That is fine, but inflexibility gets you nowhere. I mean, using that approach, TB should have never traded the young prospect Svitov for Daryl Sydor, Stanley Cup be damned. Likewise, Calgary, with their moves for Nilsson and Simon. For the record, the idea of drafting, developing and keeping young players is a great idea, the recipe for building a solid core that every winning team must have. It, alone, is not a recipe for winning a Cup.

The above is quite different than trading youth for talented, experienced in-their-prime players like Yashin and Peca (and Aucoin)...and then essentially turning out the lights on further enhancing the team over the next 3 full years. With the exception of the Niinimaa deal, that is what Wang/Milbury have done. And it's not what this NYI fan thought we bargained for when we embraced the aggressive moves of summer 2001.


The team that we would have had if we had simply developed our youth patiently would be far stronger (and also far less expensive) then the team we have right now.


On what is that based, other than paper...and a ton of conjecture?

It assumes that players who have flourished in other, winning environments, surrounded by other talented (and often experienced) players, would have all grown up very nicely together on Long Island, sans any veteran leadership and massive losing.

It assumes that an admittedly superb goalie who is yet to get a young, talented roster in Florida to the playoffs, would have gotten a young roster on L.I. into the playoffs.

It assumes Tim Connelly would have proved to be a #1 or #2 center on a winning team on Long Island, when he has proven nothing of the sort through five NHL seasons.

It assumes Jason Spezza's transition into the NHL would have been as careful (read: not rushed) on Long Island and his production would have been as strong surrounded by a group of young forwards, as it has been surrounded by the likes of such proven firepower as possessed by Ottawa.

...It assumes that Brewer (speak to any Oiler fans, lately?), Biron (AHL fodder), Kudroc (ditto), Mezei (yet to play a full NHL season), Chara and McCabe (the latter two admitted, certifiable all-stars) would produce more than the Isles' current backline. One may get excited about that bunch; I personally see two superb players, one who is terribly inconsistent and regressed last year, one who is yet to prove himself and two who aren't long for the NHL.

...It assumes Todd Bertuzzi could ever grow up on Long Island. Ditto Dumont and whoever else we want to cry over because they were selected on draft day by NYI and then dealt. Again, quite the assumption.

Look, the Luongo deal was a joke, as NYI squandered the opportunity to draft Heatley or Gaborik and have Luongo. Bertuzzi/McCabe for Linden was a poor deal. The Yashin deal was superb for Ottawa, it's not nearly the bomb you portray it as for NYI.

But once again, to bunch all trades involving young Islander players together as the same is fallacy.


As for the timetable thing, what do you expect to happen?

I want Wang/Milbury to give Weinhandl, Papineau, Bergenheim, etc. an opportunity to prove they can contribute, and Dipietro and Hunter the opportunity to continue to improve. I also want them to augment those young players and the proven core of veterans with additional proven talent (via trade/FA). Handled properly, by an owner willing to expend additional resources and a competent GM, I'd expect that this team could seriously contend in the next 1-3 seasons.

Want more specificity? Flash $$$ in front of Paul Kariya or help Anaheim unload Sykora's contract on you for futures. Sign Dan McGillis. And maintain the current roster....And watch NYI contend in the East, this year.

I know, I know, it can't happen. Charles Wang does not have an extra $10M.

Soooo...What I really expect to happen is that Wang/Milbury will introduce the kids, get average results, the team will continue to be a borderline playoff team. They may possibly strike it rich one season and get on a playoff run with their talented young goalie...or they might miss the playoffs altogether (more likely). At which time, contracts will be unloaded and your rebuilding phase for this decade will commence.


BTW, which of the teams that won the cup in recent years did it with a core composed entirely of veterans acquired in trades?

The same number that won strictly by holding on to every one of their draft picks with their dear life.

No team in NHL history has ever won the cup using the strategy you suggest.

NEVER suggested that, and I think you know better to suggest otherwise. You utilize the draft, trades and, if required, free agency, in that order. Not a matter of "only allowed to pick one from Column 'A'", you know?

The "instant team" approach the Isles used is the route to year-after-year of first round exits.

If you don't continue to move forward with improving your team through the draft, trades and/or free agency, it sure is. Since 2001, the Isles have had little left to trade, their picks since 2001 are still too ripe for the NHL, and "free agency" are apparently dirty words on Long Island. Hence, we're stuck in time. The question is: how to proceed from here. Clearly, we disagree on that!


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08-19-2004, 01:46 AM
  #42
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I didn't say I prefered Biron to Aucoin. I said I was against the youth-for-vets movement. My point was that, if you are going to take that stance (as I have), then you don't get to pick and choose the deals that happened to work out. I didn't want to see any of the youngsters traded, and the fact that some deals (like Aucoin) look great in hindsight, doesn't change how I felt about them at the time. I love how Aucoin has played on the Island, and would definitely not undo that deal, but I did not like the trade at all when it went down. And, I hated the Linden, Yashin, Peca, Luongo, and Hamrlik deals as well. I didn't evne like the Torres/Weekes trade because I wanted a vet goalie around to take the pressure off of Luongo.

And, yeah, some of those guys MIGHT not have developed on the Island, others might even be better. When you go with youngsters, some will fail to develop and others will turn out. But, that, in the end, is how you build a winner.

And, btw, Spezza outscored both Yashin and Peca last year.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 08-19-2004 at 01:55 AM.
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08-19-2004, 02:33 AM
  #43
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But you see, one can pick and choose deals. And then you live or die with them.

Wouldn't have made the Bertuzzi deal, but am not going to suggest that he would have produced as he has in Vancouver, either.

Would have made the Yashin deal on Draft Day 2001; not today. But there are no do-overs.

Would have made the Peca deal, still would today. Same with Aucoin (a no-brainer).

Am left with the impression that you wouldn't ever trade a kid. Extremism - be it loathing any player over age 30 or any neophyte under age 22 - is not conducive to building a winning team.

I agree that a core must be developed, at least in large part, from within. And clearly, NYI kicked that concept out the door culminating on draft day 2001. What I'm suggesting is that once the deal with the devil was made that June day, there was no turning back, at least for the nearer-term. Since you acquired - rightly or wrongly - key players in their late 20s as your centerpieces, you'd better continue to fill the cupboard with similiarly aged/accomplished talent.

Instead, Wang/Milbury turned out the lights. And are actually trying to backfill with kids. The introduction of Hunter (a good player), Dipietro (clearly a top talent) and other yet-unprovens like Weinhandl are correct and commendable moves, but they alone are not going to be the answer. That is the answer to the question: what does NYI need to truly contend?

So, I'm hoping against hope that someway NYI finds the mean$ and motivation to bring in more talent from the outside at some point. I'm sensing from your posts (maybe incorrectly) that you'd just as soon blow it up already and start anew.

Regardless, don't misinterpret me as advocating Milbury's "strategy" (using that term loosely) of the last eight or so years. In fact, I'm squarely between his impatience with young talent and your seeming unwavering faith in it.

Enough. All I intended originally was to defend Michael Peca!


Last edited by Trottier: 08-19-2004 at 12:47 PM.
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08-19-2004, 11:52 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
But you see, one can pick and choose deals. And then you live or die with them.

Wouldn't have made the Bertuzzi deal, but am not going to suggest that he would have produced as he has in Vancouver, either.

Would have made the Yashin deal on Draft Day 2001; not today. But there are no do-overs.

Would have made the Peca deal, still would today. Same with Aucoin (a no-brainer).

Am left with the impression that you wouldn't ever trade a kid. Extremism - be it loathing any player over age 30 or any neophyte under age 22 - is not conducive to building a wininig team.

I agree that a core must be developed, at least in large part, from within. And clearly, NYI kicked that concept out the door culminating on draft day 2001. What I'm suggesting is that once the deal with the devil was made that June day, there was no turning back, at least for the nearer-term. Since you acquired - rightly or wrongly - key players in their late 20s as your centerpieces, you'd better continue to fill the cupboard with similiarly aged/accomplished talent.

Instead, Wang/Milbury turned out the lights. And are actually trying to backfill with kids. The introduction of Hunter (a good player), Dipietro (clearly a top talent) and other yet-unprovens like Weinhandl are correct and commendable moves, but they alone are not going to be the answer. That is the answer to the question: what does NYI need to truly contend?

So, I'm hoping against hope that someway NYI finds the mean$ and motivation to bring in more talent from the outside at some point. I'm sensing from your posts (maybe incorrectly) that you'd just as soon blow it up already and start anew.

Regardless, don't misinterpret me as advocating Milbury's "strategy" (using that term loosely) of the last eight or so years. In fact, I'm squarely between his impatience with young talent and your seeming unwavering faith in it.

Enough. All I intended originally was to defend Michael Peca!

I'm not in favor of dumping the core now. I think the Evil One played his cards, and now he has no choice but to go with his hand. Whether or not Peca is in decline (and I certainly do no think that is the case) and whether or not we overpaid (and I do think that is the case), we have not choice but to go with the team captain now. Its not like we could get fair value at this point.

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08-19-2004, 12:12 PM
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But look what would have happened if we had kept all of our young talent. If they were so great than they would be making top dollar right now! Can you imagine what it would cost to pay *today's* version of Roberto Luongo, Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and throw in Dumont and Brewer. Plus the Heatley/Gaborik contract and you have a team just about as expensive as the one we have now.

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08-19-2004, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Henry I
But look what would have happened if we had kept all of our young talent. If they were so great than they would be making top dollar right now! Can you imagine what it would cost to pay *today's* version of Roberto Luongo, Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and throw in Dumont and Brewer. Plus the Heatley/Gaborik contract and you have a team just about as expensive as the one we have now.
Eventually some of those players would have cashed in, no doubt about that. I'm not sure tha any of them would be making 10 million a year though, and I'm not sure we would have 4 dmen that make somethink like a combined 15 million. We certainly would have had a lower payroll over the last few years. But, that said, the $ are not really my primary concern. My only interest in fiances is keeping the team together. Otherwise, the amount of money the owners lose is of limited concern.

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