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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

How do you define "toughness"? Give some examples

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Old
09-06-2011, 11:24 AM
  #51
Canadiens1958
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Finishing the Check Plus

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Conceded, no contact without a degree of intimidation. But the necessity has its limits. What's the purpose of "finishing the check" for example? Solely to hurt the opponent, not to separate him from the puck. Not a necessary hockey play, but nevertheless commonly accepted and embraced as a mean to intimidate and punish. And how about hits against the head? But I know your opinion on that topic. I disagree with you there, but I'm not going to get into a discussion of how bad our society is developing, how responsibility is disappearing etc. Maybe it's just that I'm younger then you, but I have no issue with the direction the world is heading in.



Yes, in fact it is, but the question was...



...whether we're happy with it or not. You are, alright. I'm not. But I'm aware I'm most likely in the minority here. (But who knows whether I will still be in the minority 10 or 20 years from now. Wait and see.)
Finishing the check goes back to the old dump and chase days where the idea was to regain control of the puck. Popular tactic especially in the old Boston Garden with the smaller ice surface. Mitigated by goalies like Plante who would leave the confines of the crease and play the puck.

Today finishing the check is used to intimidate and preclude an odd man rush the other way. Goalie cannot play the puck as freely due to rule restrictions.

Aside to Big Phil, about Messier, Potvin, Stevens having 13 SC rings. While true Kelly, H.Richard, Lemaire have 27 SC rings so the advantages attributed to brute toughness are not nearly as impressive as you imply. Conversely H. Richard would never allow a Sedin situation in Boston, one night taking on Flaman, Labine and Bionda.

Check the size differential between H. Richard and the three players in question.

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Old
09-06-2011, 12:03 PM
  #52
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Huh?. The only purpose referees' serve in a fight situation is to try & minimize the charges, hurt & harm. Guy goes down on his back or is obviously unconscious?. All over.
Not what I meant. I was referring to when the other team is "taking liberties" with yours. Your team should not have to respond in kind, because it's the ref's job to ensure that the teams are playing by the rules.

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Old
09-06-2011, 12:12 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So the lack of rigor is to be applauded and encouraged?
Not when it's being applied to something where the number actually matters, obviously. But that's clearly not the case here. There's no requirement for rigor here.

But jumping on someone who's clearly just pulling a number out of the air (and states explicitly that it's a guess) to illustrate a point? That neither should be applauded not encouraged. It amounts to nothing more than nitpicking immaterial details while not addressing the content of the post, which is what really matters.

Which is to say, if the 90% bit had been omitted entirely (or replaced with some other number), it would not have changed the content of the post one iota.

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09-06-2011, 12:59 PM
  #54
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Mental & Physical Toughness:

.. The Titanic 1959 Semi-Finals: injury laden Boston Defensemen Fern Flaman & Bob Armstrong gamely manning the blueline despite having crippling back injuries so severe, they necessitated wearing a brace/corset just to be able to walk, never mind playing Hockey!..Not to mention Harry Lumley receiving a full force puck in the face, leaving a trail of blood on the ice to the dressing room, returning after a half hour multi stitch repair job...True courage in a critical situation...


Last edited by Axxellien: 09-07-2011 at 08:39 PM.
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Old
09-06-2011, 08:18 PM
  #55
tjcurrie
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As a Stars fan I always liked these. BIG BALLZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO-Z3wPlZF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTIUBVIM1fs&feature=fvsr

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Old
09-06-2011, 08:56 PM
  #56
donpaulo
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I believe it was Harold Snepts who got an eye injury, then had it frozen so it could be "repaired" and as far as I remember he didn't miss a playoff game that year.

Mark Pavelich typifies tough to this rangers fan. First he took on and beat the russians then he took on and didn't back down from the amazing islander teams during their cup runs. He played injured and competed nightly and was a difference maker on many occasions.

Gord Lane islanders defenseman took a Sutter skate to the face in a playoff game in the early 80s. Went into the locker room had it sewn up and was back before the end of the period.

Another islander tough guy was John Tonelli, he never gave up on the puck and had some fantastic seasons as a result. But after watching some of his old games recently the guy had a motor that just never stopped.

Jon Davidson took the NYR rangers to the stanley cup finals and was injured all the while

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Old
09-07-2011, 04:04 PM
  #57
seventieslord
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In case anyone is interested, here is something neat I came across when reading a very extensive 355-page 1977 report on violence in hockey (The Neron Report). It's almost like a "hierarchy of toughness degrees in hockey":





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Old
09-07-2011, 07:53 PM
  #58
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
In case anyone is interested, here is something neat I came across when reading a very extensive 355-page 1977 report on violence in hockey (The Neron Report). It's almost like a "hierarchy of toughness degrees in hockey":
Great resource. Can you give us some background about this report?

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Hitting a player off-balance or while his head is turned, shows a dangerous lack of good manners... the "rough" players is above all, an unthinking individual who does not consider the consequences of his acts. He is like the "sluggers" who deliberately try to injure their opponents by exaggerating the "legal" shots.
Sounds like Scott Stevens to me. You don't need to agree, but obviously the notion that there is something wrong about nearly killing an opponent is not exclusively a product of the oh so softened present generation. This report is from 1977 after all...

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Old
09-07-2011, 08:19 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
In case anyone is interested, here is something neat I came across when reading a very extensive 355-page 1977 report on violence in hockey (The Neron Report). It's almost like a "hierarchy of toughness degrees in hockey":
VERY COOL. Thanks for posting. Very interesting - I suspect this report would still have tremendous validity today, something Bettman should read through (or some of his lawyers/advisors) as they work on curbing violence in hockey, hits to the head, etc.

I agree with many here that there are several kinds of tough. Playing hurt (dozens of example already stated),

taking a hit to make a play (a lot of great offensive players, even small crafty ones, fit here - Yzerman, Sakic, Crosby, Mike Bossy

intimidation - hitting/violence/dirty (afraid to go into the corners against them - like Howe, Messier, Potvin, Bobby Clarke, Lindros, Wendel Clark, Forsberg, Trottier, Stevens, Samuelsson)

intimidation from enforcers (ready and willing to drop the gloves in retribution or pure intimidation - Probert, Dave Brown, Wendel Clark, Kocur)

then you have the tenacious, tireless worker (like Tonelli) who's simply tough to play against. Big, physical, doesn't go for the big Scott Stevens type hit, but wears down defensemen, forces mistakes/turnovers.

Toughness - that's a fascinating topic. Good thread.

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09-07-2011, 08:34 PM
  #60
Canadiens1958
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1977 Neron Report

The 1977 Neron Report was commissioned by the provincial government in the province of Quebec as a study into violence in amateur hockey in the province of Quebec. The study was the result of growing violence in the QMJHL and lower level JR leagues.

Immediate result was that the Q and various other JR ib the province of Quebec leagues became less violent. Long term the report led to various changes at the minor hockey levels, directly and indirectly. Some of the changes included the reduction of body-checking at most levels pre midget, the implementation of the "franc jeu", changes in the training of coaches,MAHG introductory program was introduced with an emphasis on the fun and fairness aspects of hockey, various changes in how arenas were handling beer sales especially during tournaments, amongst others.

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Old
09-07-2011, 08:36 PM
  #61
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I think the repetitive tries of Forsberg to return to hockey is about as tough as one can wish.

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09-07-2011, 08:45 PM
  #62
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The 1977 Neron Report was commissioned by the provincial government in the province of Quebec as a study into violence in amateur hockey in the province of Quebec. The study was the result of growing violence in the QMJHL and lower level JR leagues.

Immediate result was that the Q and various other JR ib the province of Quebec leagues became less violent. Long term the report led to various changes at the minor hockey levels, directly and indirectly. Some of the changes included the reduction of body-checking at most levels pre midget, the implementation of the "franc jeu", changes in the training of coaches,MAHG introductory program was introduced with an emphasis on the fun and fairness aspects of hockey, various changes in how arenas were handling beer sales especially during tournaments, amongst others.
Very interesting, thank you.
So the cause was growing violence in the mid-70s. But was it a real increase or did people only perceive one due to a change in their awareness? And if violence really increased, why did it?

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Old
09-07-2011, 09:04 PM
  #63
Canadiens1958
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Amateur Hockey

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Very interesting, thank you.
So the cause was growing violence in the mid-70s. But was it a real increase or did people only perceive one due to a change in their awareness? And if violence really increased, why did it?
The report was mandated to deal with amateur hockey but touched on the Flyers and the Jodzio-Tardiff in the WHA.

The violence at the junior levels was very real and increasing. The indy junior owners - post sponsorship, saw fighting as a means of boasting the gate. The QMJHL had a couple of problem franchises but there were certain JR A leagues where teams played in arenas within 10 minutes of each other and the police would have to be called a number of times during the season.

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Old
09-07-2011, 10:09 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxellien View Post
.. The Titanic 1959 Semi-Finals: injury laden Boston Defensemen Fern Flaman & Bob Armstrong gamely manning the blueline despite having crippling back injuries so severe, they necessitated wearing a brace/corset just to be able to walk, never mind playing Hockey!..Not to mention Harry Lumley receiving a full force puck in the face, leaving a trail of blood on the ice to the dressing room, returning after a half hour multi stitch repair job...True courage in a critical situation...
Which reminds me.....saw a Boston Braves game at the old Boston Garden way back when. Bruins farm hand Richie Leduc took a slap shot off the head near the end of the 2nd period. Came back out all stitched up and took a regular shift in the 3rd period.

I became a fan of his that night.

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09-07-2011, 10:16 PM
  #65
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sacrificing yourself for the Team

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Old
09-08-2011, 12:19 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Which reminds me.....saw a Boston Braves game at the old Boston Garden way back when. Bruins farm hand Richie Leduc took a slap shot off the head near the end of the 2nd period. Came back out all stitched up and took a regular shift in the 3rd period.

I became a fan of his that night.
..Toughness & courage come in many forms!

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Old
09-08-2011, 03:25 PM
  #67
vadim sharifijanov
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i didn't actually see this, but my younger brother's favourite player was mathieu schneider, and it was based on one tough play. this was in one of his first two seasons in montreal, '90 or 91-- which sounds weird because young schneider did not have a reputation as a particularly tough guy. apparently, schneider of all people took a high stick to the face and was bleeding all over the place, but finished his shift, eventually carrying the puck end to end and scoring.

anyone remember this? he was eight or nine at the time, so it could well have been something he made up or embellished (i.e., the end-to-end rush part). but after the game-- i think i was doing homework in the next room or something-- he was like, "this guy, schneider. he did the most amazing thing!"

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:07 PM
  #68
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Able to fight. (Not hug and fall)
Good hitter.
Good hit reciever. (Not flop on ice like a dead fish)
Plays through slashes/cross checking. (Not dive and act injured)
Play with Injury.

If you can do all 5 decently, your a tough dude and got my respects. Blocking shots aint that big a deal due to the bulletproof armor currently.

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Old
09-10-2011, 12:17 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Talking about the cost of toughness. The presence of a tough guy like Domi or Probert usually comes with the cost that certain players on the team look to the goon element to do the heavy lifting. Successful teams, SC winning teams everyone has to do their share of the heavy lifting.
Fair enough

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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Most names mentioned in thread are from NA. Does it mean that prejudice about soft europenas is right? Or they just aren't recognized?
Only two names stand out, Salming and Chara. Personally I would give credit also to the guys from first real euro-wave in early eighties.

Just tryin' to extend the discussion...
Chara and Salming are two names that stand out for good reason. It doesn't mean there aren't other tough Euros though. As a generalization I believe North Americans are tougher. At least here in Canada I think it is just the way we are taught as youngsters.

But there are several other tough Euros that I admire. I cringe a bit when Forsberg's name is mentioned. Yes, he was tough to knock off the puck and was a great playoff performer. But he dove like crazy and once got bloodied in a fight by the gentlemenly Igor Larionov (March 26, 1997). I find it hard to include him on lists like this. Remember 2001-'02? He sat out the whole season. He wasn't particularly injured, but specifically wanted to be refreshed for the postseason. Without him in the lineup Detroit has the best record in the NHL and has home ice for Game 7 in the Avs/Red Wings series in 2002. Could you picture John Tonelli doing that?

I found Stastny tougher than Forsberg. A gentleman on the ice but he stayed away from the theatrics and was a trailblazer for many of his kind. Even though he has his critics, I would say Ovechkin plays a tougher style of game. No quit in him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Conceded, no contact without a degree of intimidation. But the necessity has its limits. What's the purpose of "finishing the check" for example? Solely to hurt the opponent, not to separate him from the puck. Not a necessary hockey play, but nevertheless commonly accepted and embraced as a mean to intimidate and punish. And how about hits against the head? But I know your opinion on that topic. I disagree with you there, but I'm not going to get into a discussion of how bad our society is developing, how responsibility is disappearing etc. Maybe it's just that I'm younger then you, but I have no issue with the direction the world is heading in.
Finishing the check is also letting the player know you are there. Is there a degree of intimidation there? Sure. But there is a line to cross from finishing your check to "late hit". Those aren't necessary or even ethical. Hits against the head aren't good, but at the speed of the game unfortunately they happen. Keep your head up is the proper thing. Some players intentionally lowered their shoulder like Wendel Clark and they still had some thunderous checks to their name.

But back to finishing the check, if you let up against another team at a crucial time and don't take the body when you have the chance, bad things can happen. I know Chara was criticized in Game 2 of the final for not wallpapering Burrows in overtime just seconds before his goal. It is arguable that Burrows had the extra step on him anyway but that's just an example. Maybe Chara throws his body into him and sends him flying into the boards. Right there that prevents a goal. You see what I mean?

Quote:
...whether we're happy with it or not. You are, alright. I'm not. But I'm aware I'm most likely in the minority here. (But who knows whether I will still be in the minority 10 or 20 years from now. Wait and see.)
I don't think the fans who enjoy the physical nature of the game will ever be in the minority

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Old
09-10-2011, 10:10 PM
  #70
LeBlondeDemon10
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I'm glad Stastny was mentioned as a trailblazer. He jumped right into the battle of Quebec and was a major factor in the games/series. Stastny was no stranger to civil wars though. I think we forget that leaving your continent for a foreign land is a lot harder than what is normally given credit for. Imagine going to Europe where you don't speak the language, you are constantly being judged and, at times, resented by the population for taking a residents job. The culture is strange, they don't feed you anything you like and you have no friends, family etc...And considering the group of Europeans that came before 1998, there was no email, web cams or easy access long distance calling. I think it takes a pretty damn tough person to endure that and then step on the ice and get a bunch more. There have been many Canadian kids who left their team and went home because they couldn't hack being 300 miles away from their family. Food for thought.

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