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All purpose 'Does fighting belong in the NHL?' thread

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Old
09-06-2011, 04:12 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Toasterman View Post
If asked privately, almost all current enforcers would mostly say they hate fighting and it agaonizes them in the pit of their stomach.

Non of them would ever want to have fighting banned, however, because they know they'd be out of the NHL in minutes and with it no more million dollar a year salary for them or their family, or glamorous single lifestyle with NHL groupies, if that was done.

Name me the strictly enforcer players (not legit power forwards or tough, stay at home D-men) who could play a regular shift in a no fighting NHL? It's a very, very short list.
I think you're 100 % wrong about most of them saying they hate fighting. It would be much closer to 0% than 100%.

Carry on.

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09-06-2011, 04:38 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
You might want to re-do your science 101 course if you think that watching games with a couple of beers will help you prove scientificaly a cause and effect phenomenon.


And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.

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09-06-2011, 05:02 PM
  #128
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IF hockey ban fighting I m going to start an epic manifestation here in Chile...I'm talking about a scorched earth!


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09-06-2011, 05:28 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.
I don't play video games so you might want to try another way to insult me.

As for the argument, I never questionned the idea that momentum and confidence exist and that they play an important role in the game... what I questionned is your LINK between confidence and momentum and the aformentioned fights...

Show me a study that prove fighting affect positively the confidence and momentum of a team and you might win this argument. For now, it's just your point of view... and I strongly disagree with it.

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09-06-2011, 05:34 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.
Back to the subject of momentum (which you shifted away from to move onto intangibles in general for some reason).

If momentum is an intangible that cannot be measured or predicted, and humans are not robots who perform the same every time, what use is managing and coaching based upon intangibles? Players aren't robots so we don't know how they actually react to things and how that is channeled into performance. To presume that there is a positive relationship between an event and performance without any evidence doesn't seem right to me given that players aren't robots or computer algorithms, we don't know how they'll react, and there's no evidence of a relationship. It seems more like a narrative construct to sell newspapers.

As an aside, though I haven't been able to find the article, the one area in hockey where I have seen evidence of "momentum" is faceoffs, where winning an offensive-zone faceoff at even-strength is akin to a having a very mini powerplay (in terms of shot generation) where the effect is gone completely after 10 seconds. Everything else seems like post-hoc narrative analysis rather than actual analysis.


Last edited by Roke: 09-06-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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09-06-2011, 05:40 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.
There a also several times, where a fight does not change the momentum, or tide of a game at all....the habs don't need more fighters, they just need to play a tougher brand of hockey, where hitting and speed creates space, and more offense, and we should be fine...

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09-06-2011, 05:46 PM
  #132
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I'm effraid to see the cheapshots increse if they ban the fights.. I rather think they should send players involved in a fight to the showers for the rest of the game..

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09-06-2011, 05:52 PM
  #133
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I look at a few things here. Athletes in all sports have dealt with concussions for many years now. All of a sudden there is a link to fighting, possible concussions and these deaths.

Quote:
Similarly, factors such as a previous head injury or a coexisting medical condition have been found to predict longer-lasting post-concussion symptoms.[49] Other factors that may lengthen recovery time after MTBI include psychological problems such as substance abuse or clinical depression, poor health before the injury or additional injuries sustained during it, and life stress.
So what is the difference between today's athletes and years ago besides we know more about concussion effects. This is purely my opinion but the drugs used to treat concussions, ect. have to play a role here. Oxy, Vicodin is prescribed like candy now a days. It is possible that athletes on these drugs resume normal activities sooner because they think they feel better but are actually doing more damage. I'm not talking about just playing hockey again.

We also have athletes with longer life spans resulting in chronic traumatic encephalopathy. Former Bear, Dave Duerson took his life recently and requested that his brain be checked for CTE.

Above and beyond that diet, lifestyle and other factors need to be considered. Concussions don't end just because you end fighting. I think the NHL determined that less than 10% of concussions last year were the result of fighting.

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09-06-2011, 06:03 PM
  #134
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No rational excuse for fighting. It's unnecessary and has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of hockey.

Game would lose nothing if fighting led to immediate suspension, and the gains would b numerous...

Suspend + fine anyone who fights, put money directly into a fund for programs related to substance abuse for players... Everyone wins, only the goons who can't actually play hockey( and don't belong in the best hockey league in the world) would "suffer" ( and of course, they'd actually benefit by not being subjected to the lifestyle of a hockey enforcer)

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09-06-2011, 06:07 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
I don't play video games so you might want to try another way to insult me.

As for the argument, I never questionned the idea that momentum and confidence exist and that they play an important role in the game... what I questionned is your LINK between confidence and momentum and the aformentioned fights...

Show me a study that prove fighting affect positively the confidence and momentum of a team and you might win this argument. For now, it's just your point of view... and I strongly disagree with it.


I love it. Prove with a study something that is not statistically tracked or quantifiable. Nice.

I can do the same thing. Show me a study that proves Jacques Martin does not kick his dog after every home game loss.

Honestly, I could care less about winning an argument with you. I would hate myself in the morning if I suddenly embraced your thought process and belief system.

Have a great evening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roke View Post

If momentum is an intangible that cannot be measured or predicted, and humans are not robots who perform the same every time, what use is managing and coaching based upon intangibles? Players aren't robots so we don't know how they actually react to things and how that is channeled into performance. To presume that there is a positive relationship between an event and performance without any evidence doesn't seem right to me given that players aren't robots or computer algorithms, we don't know how they'll react, and there's no evidence of a relationship. It seems more like a narrative construct to sell newspapers.
I honestly do not know if you are serious or not.

If you do not understand the simple concept of managing or coaching to a person's individual strength to increase their individual performance for the betterment of the team (or organization for the lay people), then I am not going to expend the effort to explain it to you.

However, your post would bring a tear to Jacques' eye if he were to read it, as it validates his one management style fits all players approach.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 09-06-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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Old
09-06-2011, 06:16 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.
Wouldn't Jacques Martin's ability to get the most out of his players be immeasurable? So how do you know he lacks that particular skill? Especially considering he's been doing his job for 25 years and has coached 1200+ games.

I bet you are one of the best at coaching teams from your armchair, though.

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09-06-2011, 06:17 PM
  #137
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Kneejerk reactions.

Boring. And does Todd even like hockey?

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09-06-2011, 06:18 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I honestly do not know if you are serious or not.

If you do not understand the simple concept of managing or coaching to a person's individual strength to increase their individual performance for the betterment of the team (or organization for the lay people), then I am not going to expend the effort to explain it to you.
I don't see how this relates to "momentum". Motivation, yes (and I believe motivation is real and important, though I don't know how big the effect is), but not momentum.

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09-06-2011, 06:23 PM
  #139
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Wouldn't Jacques Martin's ability to get the most out of his players be immeasurable? So how do you know he lacks that particular skill? Especially considering he's been doing his job for 25 years and has coached 1200+ games.

I bet you are one of the best at coaching teams from your armchair, though.
Look at the drop off in offensive production from our forwards. Measureable.

Pacioretty complains about JM last year, AK this year. Measureable.

Rookies make mistakes and are benched and then press boxed. Gomez/Hamrlik/Spacek makes the same mistakes and still get top ice time. Measureable.

Jacques Martin has never come close to winning a Cup despite having talented teams. Measureable.

And lastly, if our coaching resume was a prerequiste for posting on HFBoards, this place would be empty. Besides, everyone slapping JM on the back and giving him atta boys game after game and year after year without a Cup would seem sorta strange, dont you think?

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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
I don't see how this relates to "momentum". Motivation, yes (and I believe motivation is real and important, though I don't know how big the effect is), but not momentum.
Simple concept.

Motivating each and every INDIVIDUAL player based upon what works best for them instills confidence in that player to go above and beyond what they normally do which will allow that player to perform at a level that will lead to momentum swings.

Works every time a coach is able to do this.

Ever seen a team that is described by the analyst as "flat". Non motivated, non confident and pretty much incapable of changing the momentum of the game.

But.......all we have to do is look back at Boston when Thornton was inserted into the lineup and he went on mission to inflict pain on the Canucks. You could instantly see the momentum swing that lasted for the rest of the Series.

Of course, I dont expect the no fighting/lets surrender crowd to acknowledge the impact Thornton had on the Series.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 09-06-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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Old
09-06-2011, 06:46 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Look at the drop off in offensive production from our forwards. Measureable.

Pacioretty complains about JM last year, AK this year. Measureable.

Rookies make mistakes and are benched and then press boxed. Gomez/Hamrlik/Spacek makes the same mistakes and still get top ice time. Measureable.

Jacques Martin has never come close to winning a Cup despite having talented teams. Measureable.

And lastly, if our coaching resume was a prerequiste for posting on HFBoards, this place would be empty. Besides, everyone slapping JM on the back and giving him atta boys game after game and year after year without a Cup would seem sorta strange, dont you think?
What units are complaints measured in exactly?

If think you're confusing 'measurable' with 'anecdotal'. The only thing you brought up that's in fact measurable is a drop in offensive production from our forwards, and you give absolutely no context to it. Drop compared to what? To how they performed on their previous teams? To how they performed prior to Martin even though most of them weren't with the Canadiens? Does Plekanec having his best offensive season ever under Martin mean anything? Is the fact that the Habs finished the best they have in GA in over a decade not a feather in Martin's cap? How about their marked (and measurable) improvement in 5-on-5 play?

And a coaching resume isn't necessary, but you'd think somebody would see the irony in accusing another of living in a video game world while they themselves talk about how they understand player motivation more than a veteran hockey coach.

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09-06-2011, 07:52 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
What units are complaints measured in exactly?

If think you're confusing 'measurable' with 'anecdotal'. The only thing you brought up that's in fact measurable is a drop in offensive production from our forwards, and you give absolutely no context to it. Drop compared to what? To how they performed on their previous teams? To how they performed prior to Martin even though most of them weren't with the Canadiens? Does Plekanec having his best offensive season ever under Martin mean anything? Is the fact that the Habs finished the best they have in GA in over a decade not a feather in Martin's cap? How about their marked (and measurable) improvement in 5-on-5 play?

And a coaching resume isn't necessary, but you'd think somebody would see the irony in accusing another of living in a video game world while they themselves talk about how they understand player motivation more than a veteran hockey coach.
All fine and good questions asked by you. None are really that important. The Habs once again did not win a Stanley Cup and we were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by a team that we could/should have beaten. And I will take the injury excuse off of the table because the Canadiens pushed the Bruins to Game 7.

The "better" excuse is all of the minutes that Moen logged with Gomez and Gionta on the 2nd line which was an exercise in futility that Martin tried without success during the regular season. That "better" excuse falls squarely on Martin's shoulders as he made that poor coaching decision.

Life is filled with irony.

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09-06-2011, 08:27 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
One of the worst cheapshot in hockey is Bertuzzi's.

Not trying to blame it on Moore or anything but if Moore accepted to fight a Canuck after the Naslund incident, I don't think Bertuzzi would go to the point of sucker punch him.

My point is, if they decide to ban fighting, I have a feeling that the players will have no choice to cheapshot/suckerpunch an opponent out of rage instead of fair fist fight.

Fighting has existed for over 90 years in hockey, and no one has died or was heavily handicapped because of it. It has always been a part of hockey without any major incident. Now because 3 goons happened to die in one summer, people are acting like fighting in the nhl killed them. All the best player in the NHL have fought at least one or twice in their career. What's the big deal. Of course, excessive fighting will likely cause more damage to the head/brains but that's the choice of the players that does it. They do it because they have "no" choice. That's the only way for them to play in this league. Its a hard and risky choice but its theirs. Like the people working in dangerous job such as policeman, fireman, miners.. risky jobs but someone has to do it.

I agree that staged fight are useless and unnecessary but a good fight between two willing players to settle things is good for the game.
Sorry, but I don't see the logic. In fact, this is a faulty syllogism. The conclusion doesn't follow the premises. Bertuzzi hits Moore with a cheapshot BECAUSE fighting was considered the "right" thing to do and Moore refused. Moore wasn't hit with a stick, an elbow, blindside, etc. He was hit with a fist! Also, Moore's hit was not deemed worthy of suspension. It simply hurt. I see hits like that glorified when Dion Phaneuf dishes them out by leaving his feet every time.

Fighting and the threat of fighting do not eliminate supposed cheapshots or cheapshot artists. It didn't stop Moore from hitting Naslund, it didn't stop Cooke from hitting Savard, Richards from hitting Booth, or anyone from hitting Crosby. I don't buy it one bit. Every one of the players listed played on a team posters on this and previous threads have lauded for "grit" and for fighting and for intimidation. Sorry, as long as I have the Marc Savard video I can't buy for a minute the value of Thornton or any other Boston thug. Did you people not see Rome's hit on Horton? Did you not see that Pittsburgh had Engelland, Rupp, Asham, Godard, et al and none of them did anything to keep Crosby from being hit. A fight also won't undo the injury!

Several of you posted the last time I made this argument that "you'll never stop the guys like Cooke and you'll never stop the cheapshots." Well, yes, thank you. If you're not going to stop guys like that no matter what you do and how many guys named Lucic are in your lineup, then what, pray tell, is the purpose of fighting other than entertainment for bloodthirsty mooks with big bellies, pot scrubbers on their chins and hats on backwards?

Finally (at least for this post), if you get hit in head and you see stars or everything goes black for a moment, that's a likely concussion. Look at a few hockey fights and tell me how often you think somebody got hit that hard. Tell me then how many time these guys are checked for concussions. Yeah, it's an estimate, but I'd go with the doctor cited in several of the Belak stories who estimates one in four fights includes a concussion. CTE has what symptoms? Mood swings? Depression? Chronic pain or fatigue? Couldn't be a connection.

Look at Todd Fedoruk's x-ray. Watch the Kypreos video. Tell me you want that to be your son, brother, father, cousin, uncle, etc. Seriously. Maybe not everyone ends up like that, but check Kevin Kaminski's story, or Jim Thomson or Brantt Myhres, or any number of former tough guys who apparently, according to people who frequent this site but never played the game or engaged in a top flight hockey fight, loved every minute of it.

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09-06-2011, 08:27 PM
  #143
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All fine and good questions asked by you. None are really that important. The Habs once again did not win a Stanley Cup and we were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by a team that we could/should have beaten. And I will take the injury excuse off of the table because the Canadiens pushed the Bruins to Game 7.

The "better" excuse is all of the minutes that Moen logged with Gomez and Gionta on the 2nd line which was an exercise in futility that Martin tried without success during the regular season. That "better" excuse falls squarely on Martin's shoulders as he made that poor coaching decision.

Life is filled with irony.
If you believe the Habs were good enough to beat the eventual Stanley Cup Champions (ie, the theoretical best of the best) and they ended up losing to them in 7 games, 3 of which were decided in overtime, then I really don't see what you have to complain about.

Jacques Martin clearly made a lot of good decisions throughout the year if he took a group that is considered by outsiders (and a lot of Habs fans) to be a fringe playoff team and had them playing well enough to take the champs to 7. Does that mean the team is a contender? No, it just means that at the end of the day luck plays a large part in playoff success. One bounce here, one favourable matchup, that could be the difference between a first round exit and a deep run. That was made abundantly clear both this year and last for the Habs.

Judging Martin's tenure with the team negatively because they didn't get an extra bounce this post season just seems dishonest and a perversion of reality.

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09-06-2011, 08:30 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
All fine and good questions asked by you. None are really that important. The Habs once again did not win a Stanley Cup and we were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by a team that we could/should have beaten. And I will take the injury excuse off of the table because the Canadiens pushed the Bruins to Game 7.

The "better" excuse is all of the minutes that Moen logged with Gomez and Gionta on the 2nd line which was an exercise in futility that Martin tried without success during the regular season. That "better" excuse falls squarely on Martin's shoulders as he made that poor coaching decision.

Life is filled with irony.
Hang on, I've been following your reasoning all through this thread and clearly Moen's ability to be gritty and fight was supposed to give Gomez and Gionta a lift and make them not feel intimidated and he was supposed to change the momentum.

Now you're telling me that scoring goals, skating, and playing defense are important, too?

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09-06-2011, 08:47 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post


I love it. Prove with a study something that is not statistically tracked or quantifiable. Nice.

You're the one claiming something, without proving it, and your argument to others is to prove your statement is wrong..
You have to back up your claims with strong points in order to have an argument, otherwise it's nothing but useless words. Not sure where you developed your logic, but it's clearly lacking.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I can do the same thing. Show me a study that proves Jacques Martin does not kick his dog after every home game loss.
Why should someone prove anything to you?? You're the one making a statement, You're the one that needs to prove it.

Wow, can you imagine if it was that easy in court.
''I say you are guilty, prove to me you weren't. No, I don't need to prove you were, you have to prove you're innocent.''.

You have backward logic dude.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And a person might display a level of ignorance if they did not think that momentum plays a significant role in any sport or game.

In the world of XBox, sure, momentum, confidence, motivation is irrelevant. You control a computer generated image of a player and those intangibles are non-existent.

But in the real world, with real human beings who possess real emotions, those intangibles are the difference between winning and losing. That is why some coaches are successful and others are not. Anyone can draw up X's and O's on a board. It takes a talented leader to get the most out of his players to succeed.

JM lacks that. Seems as if you do as well. But I bet you are one of the best at playing NHL 11 on the computer though.
Yup, he certainly hasn't been getting the most out of his team these past two seasons.
A CF appearance despite being probably the least favored to even advance from round 1, let alone round 2, with a team that suffered huge amount of injuries (2nd in the east if I recall) on top of having 10new players (which, you should agree, doesn't help with chemistry and momentum). A very good second year with a team that played a lot more organized and structured but again went through very key injuries. Still we had a good 6th place finish and a tough hard battle in the POs taking the eventual SC Champs to a 7game OT final (3 OT). With a deeper set of talented players up front in a long time, and with the return of key players like Markov and Gorges, it makes the upcoming season a promising one.
Spare me the ''happy with mediocrity'' idiotic idea. It's not because one can look at everything that happened in a season, look at how it all unfolded, and give a positive evaluation that they are happy with mediocrity. Spare me your nostalgic arguments about the good old days too.

JM has done a good job with this club so far, and has gotten our guys to push extra hard in the POs. If you can't see that, then you really shouldn't be discussing JM.

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Old
09-06-2011, 09:18 PM
  #146
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I want to ask those who love fighting in hockey if they think any other sports might benefit from a similar policy, that is, a policy wherein two athletes on the playing field can simply drop their gloves and begin punching one another while the officials stand aside and look.

I remember watching hockey in Asia, with people unfamiliar with the game. When the fighting started, it was embarrassing how utterly stupid the sport appeared.

Sorry but I think many who love fighting in hockey are the same sort of people who watch NASCAR for the crashes.

So I propose a new sport: Go-karts lapping a rink, when karts crash the drivers dismount and punch each other out.
The first part seemed like an honest question which deserved an honest answer. The second part is ridiculous and I'll reply with the same kind of answer.

First part: I love fighting in hockey and I don't care about what other sports do, as NHL hockey is far and beyond my very favourite sport and it's been for 3 decades. Fighting is one of the difference between NHL and International hockey and why I much prefer NHL hockey over the other kind.

Second part: People who want to see ballerinas on skates can watch figure skating instead. (See how silly that sounds?)

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09-06-2011, 09:59 PM
  #147
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The first part seemed like an honest question which deserved an honest answer. The second part is ridiculous and I'll reply with the same kind of answer.

First part: I love fighting in hockey and I don't care about what other sports do, as NHL hockey is far and beyond my very favourite sport and it's been for 3 decades. Fighting is one of the difference between NHL and International hockey and why I much prefer NHL hockey over the other kind.

Second part: People who want to see ballerinas on skates can watch figure skating instead. (See how silly that sounds?)
So, you prefer NHL over International because of fighting??...Really?
I'm sure it's not because you have just about 99% of the best players of the world playing in that league.

Also, you might love (really?..Love?..) fighting, but that doesn't mean it's influential on the game. It isn't 99% of the time.

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09-06-2011, 10:11 PM
  #148
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It's quite sad that out of all the complexities of the hockey game, the one thing people are most concerned about is something that actually has very little influence over the course of a hockey game.

People are getting more riled up about potential stricter rules for fighting than the changes that occured with the two-line pass being removed, the addition of the trapezoid to limit a goalie from playing the puck, the addition of the shootout and the stricter enforment of obstruction to remove the clutching and grabbing...all which were changes that fundamentally changed the way the game was played, but didn't seem to bother people much.

Yet, you question the purpose of fighting in the sport and ask whether or not it is time to limit it and people freak out and become irrational citing such things as "go watch ballet you pansy" or claiming that it is "*****fing" the game. Moreover, they claim that messing with fighting is messing with the integrity and tradition of the game, while that may be so, would it be messing with the integrity of the game any more so than the recent rule changes in various areas of the game that have a direct impact on the way the game is played? I think not. If one was really concerned with the integrity and tradition of the game, they would be more focused on the recent changes to the actual way the game is played on the ice and the ones that are to come. Moreover, if the concern really was about intregrity and tradition of the game, then you guys should have stopped watching hockey right after the lockout because of the rule changes.

It's sad that some people really value one of the most insignificant aspects of the game so much that they make claims like "if they remove fighting I'll never watch" or "fighting is the reason why the nhl is better than international hockey". Hockey is such a complex and artistic sport, it's sad that fighting is that much of a priority for some people.


Last edited by Andy: 09-06-2011 at 10:24 PM.
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09-06-2011, 10:18 PM
  #149
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
If you believe the Habs were good enough to beat the eventual Stanley Cup Champions (ie, the theoretical best of the best) and they ended up losing to them in 7 games, 3 of which were decided in overtime, then I really don't see what you have to complain about.

Jacques Martin clearly made a lot of good decisions throughout the year if he took a group that is considered by outsiders (and a lot of Habs fans) to be a fringe playoff team and had them playing well enough to take the champs to 7. Does that mean the team is a contender? No, it just means that at the end of the day luck plays a large part in playoff success. One bounce here, one favourable matchup, that could be the difference between a first round exit and a deep run. That was made abundantly clear both this year and last for the Habs.

Judging Martin's tenure with the team negatively because they didn't get an extra bounce this post season just seems dishonest and a perversion of reality.
We had a talented team last year. We have a talented team this year. My complaint is that JM wasted many opportunities.

That's the difference between you and I. I see talent. You see a marginal team (even though you mentioned outsiders). I blame Martin. You blame a lack of good luck.

Luck can only get you so far. An outstanding coach can get you a Stanley Cup. Martin is good........far from outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Chris Nilan View Post
Hang on, I've been following your reasoning all through this thread and clearly Moen's ability to be gritty and fight was supposed to give Gomez and Gionta a lift and make them not feel intimidated and he was supposed to change the momentum.

Now you're telling me that scoring goals, skating, and playing defense are important, too?
If you were following my reasoning, you must have missed a post or two. And I give you credit for making a cute post.

I have been a proponent of having two scoring lines with talented forwards, a hard nosed gritty checking line and a 4th line with 3 men who will fight.

Moen or White or any other 4th liner is a waste with Gomez and Gionta. You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that except Jacques Martin.

Hey Kriss E. Helluva post with the hanging on to the prove something that has no statistics tracking it. Tell you what, when I get about a month of free time, I will go tthrough the entire archives of every game played last year. And just for you, I will watch every single minute of every game and compile that list for you. K? Just be patient.


Last edited by Mike8: 09-06-2011 at 10:21 PM. Reason: merge
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09-06-2011, 10:25 PM
  #150
Habsterix*
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So, you prefer NHL over International because of fighting??...Really?
I'm sure it's not because you have just about 99% of the best players of the world playing in that league.

Also, you might love (really?..Love?..) fighting, but that doesn't mean it's influential on the game. It isn't 99% of the time.
Yes, really. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't write it. Hard to believe isn't it?

And yes, I do love that aspect of the game. Guilty as charged! And we've been through that. Because you don't believe that it has an effect on the game doesn't mean it doesn't.

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