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06-24-2011, 10:12 AM
  #1
Yakushev72
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Youth hockey in Russia

What additional measures need to be taken to increase the talent pool in Russia?

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06-24-2011, 04:57 PM
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more rinks, better pay for youth coaches, eventually separating the schools from club teams and putting them on a commercial bases...

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06-24-2011, 06:15 PM
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Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
more rinks, better pay for youth coaches, eventually separating the schools from club teams and putting them on a commercial bases...
From what I can see, you are one of the best informed and most up-to-date posters on Russian hockey who participates in this board. To your knowledge, what is going on now with the construction of rinks? Are new rinks being built on a piecemeal basis, or is there evidence of a systematic effort to build rinks in potentially productive areas where they don't exist?

Secondly, Tretiak and others must understand how important it is to elevate the status of coaches and give them the financial incentive to work on a merit basis, instead of blatnie. Is there anything going on now to reform the status of coaches that you are aware of?

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06-25-2011, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Secondly, Tretiak and others must understand how important it is to elevate the status of coaches and give them the financial incentive to work on a merit basis, instead of blatnie. Is there anything going on now to reform the status of coaches that you are aware of?
I read about connection between drafted russians in KHL and their youth coaches. So, youth coaches get some money depending on round which a kid was drafted in. I dont know how it works (if works), how much money they get. BTW I like this idea, if it works

Separating schools and clubs. Is it possible in Russia? I know that they are some independent school (Byele Medvede Moscow, Rus Moscow) - so it could work. I cant imagine it in Slovakia therefore I ask

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06-25-2011, 05:33 AM
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Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
From what I can see, you are one of the best informed and most up-to-date posters on Russian hockey who participates in this board. To your knowledge, what is going on now with the construction of rinks? Are new rinks being built on a piecemeal basis, or is there evidence of a systematic effort to build rinks in potentially productive areas where they don't exist?

Secondly, Tretiak and others must understand how important it is to elevate the status of coaches and give them the financial incentive to work on a merit basis, instead of blatnie. Is there anything going on now to reform the status of coaches that you are aware of?
Unfortunately, AFAIK there is nothing systematic going on. The MHL was a good first step, the MHL2 is a good second step, but we need more. And heck, I'd love the KHL spending money on this, more than on Italian teams...

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06-25-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Unfortunately, AFAIK there is nothing systematic going on. The MHL was a good first step, the MHL2 is a good second step, but we need more. And heck, I'd love the KHL spending money on this, more than on Italian teams...
What is MHL2?

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06-25-2011, 10:11 AM
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What is MHL2?
it will be second tier junior league in Russia. It should start in september. De facto second junior league.

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06-25-2011, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I read about connection between drafted russians in KHL and their youth coaches. So, youth coaches get some money depending on round which a kid was drafted in. I dont know how it works (if works), how much money they get. BTW I like this idea, if it works

Separating schools and clubs. Is it possible in Russia? I know that they are some independent school (Byele Medvede Moscow, Rus Moscow) - so it could work. I cant imagine it in Slovakia therefore I ask
I like the idea of providing financial incentives to coaches whose players who make it to the KHL. That gives good reason to focus on quality and talent, instead of connections or the parents' ability to pay for a place on the team. With no transfer agreement with the NHL, the same financial incentives would not apply to kids who go the NHL, CHL or AHL.

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06-25-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Unfortunately, AFAIK there is nothing systematic going on. The MHL was a good first step, the MHL2 is a good second step, but we need more. And heck, I'd love the KHL spending money on this, more than on Italian teams...
The MHL and MHL2 are huge steps, IMO. Of the things that need to be done, maybe building new rinks and upgrading the status of coaches are the most urgent priorities, and separating junior teams from the KHL can wait a bit longer until the junior leagues are more established with Russian fans.

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06-25-2011, 12:16 PM
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the soviet system was more effective at producing talent than today.

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06-26-2011, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
the soviet system was more effective at producing talent than today.
soviet system is past - moral levels are different and not as high, people practiced for 365 days a year just for the idea of bringing glory to the country, sometimes out of fear for themselves and family won Olympic medals practicing on aged poor equipment and beat up old falling apart halls. Coaches had exposure to kids, who didn't really have other alternatives (computers, ps3, xbox, and etc)
a new system of developing is very faulty, weak and in early steps of it's development. MHL and MHL-b, tv-broadcasts of junior teams of different ages (in the 90's u'd be lucky to see 1 RSL game a month) are all good signs. More needs to be done, a lot more. I am very afraid that all these attempts to break into western and eastern non-CIS markets are a waste of money and KHL system is very fragile as is...

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06-26-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
soviet system is past - moral levels are different and not as high, people practiced for 365 days a year just for the idea of bringing glory to the country, sometimes out of fear for themselves and family won Olympic medals practicing on aged poor equipment and beat up old falling apart halls. Coaches had exposure to kids, who didn't really have other alternatives (computers, ps3, xbox, and etc)
a new system of developing is very faulty, weak and in early steps of it's development. MHL and MHL-b, tv-broadcasts of junior teams of different ages (in the 90's u'd be lucky to see 1 RSL game a month) are all good signs. More needs to be done, a lot more. I am very afraid that all these attempts to break into western and eastern non-CIS markets are a waste of money and KHL system is very fragile as is...
The KHL will have to become more successful as a domestic league before their product can be exported to the places where they wanted to go - like Sweden, Finland, Germany, etc. Going into Italy will only further serve to dilute the hockey, without adding in a major way to the stature of the league.

For most parts of Soviet hockey that you describe, its better that they are gone. But some characteristics should be selectively retained, particularly the emphasis on training and conditioning for senior level players in the KHL. For me, the best things about Soviet hockey was the ability to play with amazing skill at top speed, particularly clubs like CSKA. That can only come with hours of practice. Since these guys are pros who, unlike in Soviet years, are making lots of money and securing their future, why shouldn't they work 10 or 11 months a year, like regular people? I'm not talking about living in dormitories or extreme measures like that, but what would hurt the KHL if they established a tougher regimen than the NHL?

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06-26-2011, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The KHL will have to become more successful as a domestic league before their product can be exported to the places where they wanted to go - like Sweden, Finland, Germany, etc. Going into Italy will only further serve to dilute the hockey, without adding in a major way to the stature of the league.

For most parts of Soviet hockey that you describe, its better that they are gone. But some characteristics should be selectively retained, particularly the emphasis on training and conditioning for senior level players in the KHL. For me, the best things about Soviet hockey was the ability to play with amazing skill at top speed, particularly clubs like CSKA. That can only come with hours of practice. Since these guys are pros who, unlike in Soviet years, are making lots of money and securing their future, why shouldn't they work 10 or 11 months a year, like regular people? I'm not talking about living in dormitories or extreme measures like that, but what would hurt the KHL if they established a tougher regimen than the NHL?
fringe players would bolt back to the NHL. KHL is the retirement home for the NHL - I hate it.

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06-26-2011, 03:52 PM
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fringe players would bolt back to the NHL. KHL is the retirement home for the NHL - I hate it.
You're right, the guys who have the option of returning to the NHL would probably do it rather than tolerate a more rigorous training regimen. At the same time, there are fewer and fewer guys who have NHL experience to fall back on. The number of guys playing in the NHL goes down year after year, and based on the draft yesterday, that trend will continue for the foreseeable future. A lot of guys wouldn't agree, but I personally like the idea of more of the best Russian talent playing in the KHL rather than the NHL. The trend in international tournaments, which is mainly what I care about, is that as the percentage of NHL players on the national team has declined, the performance of the team has improved.

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06-27-2011, 08:20 AM
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international performance improved because our fringe NHL players are now home and theirs (Swe, Fin, Cze and Slov) are still playing in the NHL, which is undeniably a much better league. In a long run, this hinders the development of Russian Super Stars - as they won't be truly marketed in the KHL, or won't develop as much playing vs. inferior competition.

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06-27-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
international performance improved because our fringe NHL players are now home and theirs (Swe, Fin, Cze and Slov) are still playing in the NHL, which is undeniably a much better league. In a long run, this hinders the development of Russian Super Stars - as they won't be truly marketed in the KHL, or won't develop as much playing vs. inferior competition.
Russian players have never fared that well in the NHL. There have been a handful of exceptional talents who have excelled over more than 20 years - Fedorov, Bure, Ovechkin, Datsyuk, but the vast majority have played far below their potential. Despite their dominant performances against the NHL's best when they played for Soviet and CSKA teams, Fetisov, Kasatonov, Larionov, Krutov and Makarov were never considered outstanding based on their performances in the NHL. Krutov, who in my opinion was a remarkable player, was panned as being grossly overrated by the NHL press, and was drummed out of the league after a year or two. Makarov was cut by the Dallas Stars. Fetisov and Larionov gained some respect toward the end of their careers, but both were considered disappointments for much of their time. For a number of reasons, it was impossible for them to exert the dominant role that they could in Russia.

There is a school of thought that Russian hockey is better off if the best players all play in the NHL. I am not a subscriber to that philosophy. While there is no law that says that the KHL could not improve the caliber of its play sometime in the future, the caliber of play in the NHL is, IMO, not better than the KHL by a wide margin. Most NHL players are marginal, and could be in the minors or out of hockey tomorrow
if a hot new prospect comes along. At least 75% of Canadians in the NHL are available to play in the WC every year, but Canadians are constantly complaining about the low quality of their WC teams. Soviet hockey excellence was strictly of domestic origin, and had nothing to do with playing against the NHL.

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06-27-2011, 12:55 PM
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I understand your point, I just don't think KHL today warrants good competition and offers good ways for a player do develop. It's just a good place for a fringe NHLer to make a stop-gap, earn some money and take a breather to go conquer the NHL or for some guy who can't play @ 115% 82 games a season any longer due to age or injuries to still keep his career alive and make decent $$$. KHL only has a handful good teams and the only reason why - players are grossly overpaid.
If you wanna tell me, that teams in the KHL are anywhere close to the NHL in players development, training practices, attitude of the players and etc I will have to disagree with you completely. Moreover, KHL, unlike the NHL is not geared towards parity and doesn't give the teams an equal chance to succeed - it's the league for the richest.

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06-27-2011, 02:36 PM
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Trying to develop the KHL into a legitimite competitor to the NHL means trying to keep as many Russian talents at home even if this means the NT might suffer a bit temporarily (though this is debatable), in the longer run Russian Hockey will be better for it.

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06-27-2011, 04:22 PM
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Doesn't help that potentially Russia's best prospect in years could be drafted tommorow in the CHL Import draft and headed to North America to play in the CHL.

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06-27-2011, 04:32 PM
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Doesn't help that potentially Russia's best prospect in years could be drafted tommorow in the CHL Import draft and headed to North America to play in the CHL.
I agree that it doesn't help Russia that much based on the past history of guys who have gone to North America at too young an age. Even though the local people are hospitable to them and help them out as much as possible, they can't escape the fact that they are outsiders, they can't speak the language, they're different, and they wouldn't be accepted as leaders on the team. They have to be quiet and not draw too much attention to themselves. Some adjust better than others, but very few adjust well and become the hockey players that they are capable of being.

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06-27-2011, 04:38 PM
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Trying to develop the KHL into a legitimite competitor to the NHL means trying to keep as many Russian talents at home even if this means the NT might suffer a bit temporarily (though this is debatable), in the longer run Russian Hockey will be better for it.
It may take a long time, but the premise for this thread is that Russia has the resources to develop players that could make the KHL much stronger than it is now. True, North America is richer, but Russia has a huge potential talent pool to develop enough high quality players to fully staff a 25-team league that could be very competitive with the NHL in future years, and it is only touching the tip of the iceberg right now.

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06-27-2011, 04:55 PM
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I understand your point, I just don't think KHL today warrants good competition and offers good ways for a player do develop. It's just a good place for a fringe NHLer to make a stop-gap, earn some money and take a breather to go conquer the NHL or for some guy who can't play @ 115% 82 games a season any longer due to age or injuries to still keep his career alive and make decent $$$. KHL only has a handful good teams and the only reason why - players are grossly overpaid.
If you wanna tell me, that teams in the KHL are anywhere close to the NHL in players development, training practices, attitude of the players and etc I will have to disagree with you completely. Moreover, KHL, unlike the NHL is not geared towards parity and doesn't give the teams an equal chance to succeed - it's the league for the richest.
I can't disagree with you about the status quo and the disparity in money and influence in the KHL, but the fact is, NHL teams aren't taking that many Russian players anymore. Whether it is the lack of a transfer agreement with the KHL, or a dropoff in talent, there are very few active Russian players in the NHL, and very few kids are being drafted. To some degree, the KHL is the best choice for those players who didn't develop into stars by age 17 or 18, and the only choice for most. I think NHL teams are staying away from Russians because of the existence of the KHL, because Russians have a better chance of being overpaid in the KHL than they do in the AHL.

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06-27-2011, 07:54 PM
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To be honest I don't really like this idea one bit he will be learning a new style of play before he really mastered the other. Will create a hybrid style and limit his effectiveness. In essence may prevent him from being a true top line player since he didn't perfect those skills. He could have been learning and practising with professionals in Russia instead he is playing with kids while learning how to bodycheck and play defence. I understand if you are a player of lesser skill or an unknown player who likely wouldn't get drafted if they stayed, but Grigorenko is a household name and would have been picked anyways which is why I don't understand this move. Dissapointing was hoping he'd end up like Malkin.

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06-27-2011, 08:06 PM
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To be honest I don't really like this idea one bit he will be learning a new style of play before he really mastered the other. Will create a hybrid style and limit his effectiveness. In essence may prevent him from being a true top line player since he didn't perfect those skills. He could have been learning and practising with professionals in Russia instead he is playing with kids while learning how to bodycheck and play defence. I understand if you are a player of lesser skill or an unknown player who likely wouldn't get drafted if they stayed, but Grigorenko is a household name and would have been picked anyways which is why I don't understand this move. Dissapointing was hoping he'd end up like Malkin.
I have to totally agree with you. Grigorenko is a huge talent, but instead of playing with North American kids where he'll be expected to muck and grind, and dump and chase, he is probably good enough to earn regular playing time in the KHL next year, particularly for CSKA. CSKA78 is right when he says that the NHL will be a long way ahead of the KHL for the foreseeable future, but I am absolutely certain that the KHL is much better than the OHL, WHL or QMJHL. He would get much better quality experience in the KHL than Canadian junior hockey.

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06-28-2011, 02:24 AM
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I am very afraid that all these attempts to break into western and eastern non-CIS markets are a waste of money and KHL system is very fragile as is...
This is very true.

It baffles me how every intelligent Russian hockey fan knows that the KHL expanding to the West is nothing but a waste of Russian resources, but the leadership of the KHL does not realize this.

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