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Old
09-08-2011, 05:06 PM
  #126
LilySmoov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod Bobrov View Post
GordieHoweHatTrick said so himself. Defensive d-men don't become superstars. That's common knowledge.

Landeskog has never played a game in the NHL but GHHT can already draw unsubstantiated cold-hard conclusions from his OHL career. Seems like you have a lot in common with yet another Leafs fans actually.
Define "superstar".

And the underlined didn't make any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyTheBrave
Well, it's true. Luke Schenn will never be a superstar defenseman. I mean you would to be losing touch with reality to think so, would you not?

Think about what makes a defenseman a superstar defenseman and then look around and see how many there are, there really aren't many and the ones there are...are the types that Luke Schenn would never touch at any point in his career.

Nik Lidstrom is a superstar defenseman, Zdeno Chara is one as well...you think he is ever going to reach that status? Be real.
What I think of Schenn doesn't matter. To say outright that a 21 year old athlete will never be a superstar, regardless of who he is or what he does, is stupid. Period. "I don't think he will be" ≠ "he won't be." Objectivity is a beautiful thing.

And that was a cute strawman. Lidstrom and Chara are arguably the two best defensemen in the NHL right now. Most would consider them to be in an echelon above mere superstardom.

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:08 PM
  #127
Jimmy Carter
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
bull ****, i repeat in his 1st two years the isles allowed 120 more goals than they scored and Streit was a plus 6

the Isles have had a far worse defense in that time too as during that time the leafs had one of the top 5 highest paid defenses in all of hockey

now youll start blaming your Goalies im sure, but Reimer is a great young goalie. maybe you should just admit Schenn still has work to do
There is not one 21 year old in the league that doesn't have stuff to work on. Doughty can still get better despite how good he is now. No one that young knows everything in the entire game. So yeah, he needs to work on stuff... that alone doesn't make him any worse than any other 21 year old NHL defender.

Reimer was only a starter for half of last year, so Luke only played with him for 1/6 of his career thus far. The Monster was in and out with heart issues and mediocre when he was playing half the time, Giguere was injured a lot, before that he played in front of the likes of Toskala, Pogge, Gerber, MacDonald, and CuJo in the twilight of his career. Of those goalies, only Gerber had a +.900 save % while on the Leafs, and that was for a mere 12 starts. So yes, you can't blame Reimer, but you can blame most of the other goalies, which Schenn played most of his career with.

To top it off, how does having a top 5 PAID defense mean anything about on ice performance? It doesn't, hence why the Leafs struggled. Especially when $4.5 mil is going to your 7th D-man.

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:10 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Mouse21 View Post
actually both Jones and Landeskog are superior to Schenn.
id say Barrie for Schenn would be about fair. both 1 dimensional D men. but even that id probably pass on honestly.


Based on potential alone maybe you can argue Lando=Schenn in value. But you're off your rocker to say you wouldn't trade Barrie or Jones for Schenn straight up, at this point in time. I have high hopes for Barrie and Jones is one of my favorite players, but I wouldn't even think twice if Burke was high enough to take that proposal.

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:11 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post


Luke Schenn
Clarke MacArthur
Greg McKegg




Gabriel Landeskog
David Jones
Tyson Barrie
Thereby solving once and for all the Leafs need for a number 1 center...oh wait

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:11 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by LilySmoov View Post
Define "superstar".

And the underlined didn't make any sense.


What I think of Schenn doesn't matter. To say outright that a 21 year old athlete will never be a superstar, regardless of who he is or what he does, is stupid. Period. "I don't think he will be" ≠ "he won't be." Objectivity is a beautiful thing.

And that was a cute strawman. Lidstrom and Chara are arguably the two best defensemen in the NHL right now. Most would consider them to be in an echelon above mere superstardom.


Alrighty then.

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:11 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
That's exactly that makes him special. People talk about blue-chippers etc. but once a player hits NHL ice and loses that shiny, new feeling he becomes "just another.." Luke Schenn is 22 y/o and is a proven NHL commodity. He's not 30, he's not over the hill, he still has potential to improve. He's like your shiny new Landeskog, except proven! Neither will be superstars in this league but both will likely be key cogs to a solid NHL team. So tell me, in respect to the OPs proposal, how could an Avs fan state that Landeskog is in any way shape or form better than Luke Schenn right now?
I may have mis-read but no one is saying Landeskog is better than Schenn right now.

You keep Schenn, we don't really want him. We would prefer to have wingers right now.

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:14 PM
  #132
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Toronto's happy with Schenn, Colorado is happy with Landeskog.

I honestly can't think of more than a couple reasons why a Leafs or Avs fan would make this proposal. It's actually retarded.

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09-08-2011, 05:15 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by OnlyTheBrave View Post


Alrighty then.
One day people will realize that this is never an adequate, cogent rebuttal.

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09-08-2011, 05:18 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
What? I think he's a solid 2nd pairing defenseman with potential to be a solid #2. I was denouncing the quantitative data you used to diminish Schenn's value.

Once again, the Leafs allowed 811 goals over the last three years while employing guys like Vesa Toskala (79G, >3.30GAA, >.885 Save% while playing with Schenn), Matt Stajan (1st line center), Alexei Ponikarovsky (1st line winger), Niklas Hagman (2nd line winger) etc. +/- is a team stat, not data that reflects an individual's performance.

Schenn had 95 GvA last season. I simply stated that I'm noticing his 1st pass improve. Moving the puck isn't something he was generally known to do, so maybe the improvement I'm seeing is Schenn simply being more aggressive with the puck on his stick. Again, he's 22, he'll improve. Practically every facet of his game has since he first stepped on NHL ice. At the same time, Ron Wilson deploys a heavily offensive system in Toronto and having the 2nd youngest team in the league playing under his system generally won't improve your GvA stats.
I agree with the bolded, truly i do, but im just trying to bring some sense of validity here as well

The Isles are just as young as the leafs (even younger when you factor out Streit,Nabokov,Eaton, Weight who played less than 54 games combined last year) Nabokov by himself added a half year to the isles average age and he never even stepped on the ice, Weight added even more in his 100 minutes or so total time on ice

and the leafs were 4th youngest not 2nd

all im saying is if Hamonic and Mac Donald could do it at a younger and more inexperienced age on a team that was younger, why couldnt Schenn


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Old
09-08-2011, 05:23 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Rockies94 View Post
Some leafs fan, tell me what makes Schenn so special?

He's a good number 2 dmen, nothing more...
Yeah you answered your own question...

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:26 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Megan Fox View Post
Langway, Horton, Schenn.
Howe, Hull, Landeskog.
Did I do that right?

For a defensive defenseman to attain "superstar" status, he has to be a whole lot better than Luke Schenn. He has a better chance of being the next Liles than being mentioned in the same breath as the other two after he retires.

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09-08-2011, 05:31 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter View Post
There is not one 21 year old in the league that doesn't have stuff to work on. Doughty can still get better despite how good he is now. No one that young knows everything in the entire game. So yeah, he needs to work on stuff... that alone doesn't make him any worse than any other 21 year old NHL defender.

Reimer was only a starter for half of last year, so Luke only played with him for 1/6 of his career thus far. The Monster was in and out with heart issues and mediocre when he was playing half the time, Giguere was injured a lot, before that he played in front of the likes of Toskala, Pogge, Gerber, MacDonald, and CuJo in the twilight of his career. Of those goalies, only Gerber had a +.900 save % while on the Leafs, and that was for a mere 12 starts. So yes, you can't blame Reimer, but you can blame most of the other goalies, which Schenn played most of his career with.

To top it off, how does having a top 5 PAID defense mean anything about on ice performance? It doesn't, hence why the Leafs struggled. Especially when $4.5 mil is going to your 7th D-man.
The point was as ive said several times is that he's a solid 2nd pairing or marginal 1st pairing defender with the right partner, im just pointing out that hes being over rated here

if MacDonald and Hamonic, who have had every disadvantage Schenn has had and then some can be responsible in plus minus and in giveaways/takeaways, why cant Schenn?

im just pointing out he's over rated by some leaf fans on here in this thread

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Old
09-08-2011, 05:45 PM
  #138
Vsevolod Bobrov
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Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
Howe, Hull, Landeskog.
Did I do that right?

For a defensive defenseman to attain "superstar" status, he has to be a whole lot better than Luke Schenn. He has a better chance of being the next Liles than being mentioned in the same breath as the other two after he retires.
Megan Fox is a very bold troll, hard to not like him. And he comes with a Megan Fox pic.

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09-08-2011, 05:47 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Vsevolod Bobrov View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

WOW thanks man I didn't know that. Leafs fans are sure more eager to repeat the hitting stat than that one
well he is in pretty good company tho with the giveaways, one fact tho that many fail to consider regarding Schenn's give away # is that on dump ins for a change or for the purpose of developing a forecheck the Leafs were terrible at puck recovery and when the forward failed to recover the puck or even if the D gained possession then lost it to a fore checker it still is counted as a give away. Regarding the -17 is no issue IMO because that goes to show more about Toskala and the Leafs.

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09-08-2011, 05:54 PM
  #140
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well he is in pretty good company tho with the giveaways, one fact tho that many fail to consider regarding Schenn's give away # is that on dump ins for a change or for the purpose of developing a forecheck the Leafs were terrible at puck recovery and when the forward failed to recover the puck or even if the D gained possession then lost it to a fore checker it still is counted as a give away. Regarding the -17 is no issue IMO because that goes to show more about Toskala and the Leafs.
You forgot to mention that Schenn is 12th in blocked shots also on another note franson and Liles have a descent shot on net %age

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09-08-2011, 05:59 PM
  #141
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Leaf fans really overrate Luke Schenn's value. Defensive Defenseman are a dime a dozen.

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09-08-2011, 06:00 PM
  #142
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I have already adressed a similar response, but man is this funny. Schenn can do no wrong basically. Leads the league in giveaways ? it's because the way GwA are counted / Leafs style of play / Duncan Keith is cose to him anyway so it can't be bad.

Horrendous +/- ? It was was ALL Gustavsson/Toskala/Giguere/Gerber's fault.

No offensive talent ? Doesn't matter, he's the next Adam Foote/Rod Langway, and anyway he will develop it.

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09-08-2011, 06:00 PM
  #143
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Colorado gets ******.

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09-08-2011, 06:02 PM
  #144
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The lack of respect for Schenn is disgusting.

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09-08-2011, 06:04 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by OnlyTheBrave View Post
Well, it's true. Luke Schenn will never be a superstar defenseman. I mean you would to be losing touch with reality to think so, would you not?

Think about what makes a defenseman a superstar defenseman and then look around and see how many there are, there really aren't many and the ones there are...are the types that Luke Schenn would never touch at any point in his career.

Nik Lidstrom is a superstar defenseman, Zdeno Chara is one as well...you think he is ever going to reach that status? Be real.
Wow you talk about loosing touch with reality but do you not remember Chara's first few years with the Sens? I do he was a big slow clumsy D and he blossomed into IMO the best D-man in the league. So here goes you sir have been severely thrown for a loop by the MAJOR D exceptions to the rule of late with Doughty, Myers and Subban because the far majority of Defense men take 3-5 years to learn to be a complete player. It's the defensive part of their game that takes the longest to learn and in Schenn's case I'd say he is ahead of the curve in that department. As far as the trade proposal its a big no simply because no team EVER trades a top 5 pick that soon, it just doesn't happen. I can honestly see Schenn being an all star D some time in the next 3 years and every year there after for a good 6-10.

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09-08-2011, 06:05 PM
  #146
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The problem is you're all focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?". I don't mean to be rude but people like you I really pity. So maybe you could use the few brain cells you have and take advantage of the knowledge I have given you now. Good luck.

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09-08-2011, 06:15 PM
  #147
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Wow you talk about loosing touch with reality but do you not remember Chara's first few years with the Sens? I do he was a big slow clumsy D and he blossomed into IMO the best D-man in the league. So here goes you sir have been severely thrown for a loop by the MAJOR D exceptions to the rule of late with Doughty, Myers and Subban because the far majority of Defense men take 3-5 years to learn to be a complete player. It's the defensive part of their game that takes the longest to learn and in Schenn's case I'd say he is ahead of the curve in that department. As far as the trade proposal its a big no simply because no team EVER trades a top 5 pick that soon, it just doesn't happen. I can honestly see Schenn being an all star D some time in the next 3 years and every year there after for a good 6-10.
Dude, didn't you read what Vsevolod Bobrov said? Schenn will never be a super-/all-star, presumably because he lead the league in giveaways and only scored 22 points as a 21 year old playing on a relatively poor team. Try and dispute an air-tight argument like that.

Seriously.

Go on.

Do it.

I bet you can't.

You can't 'cause it's air-tight.

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09-08-2011, 06:17 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
The problem is you're all focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?". I don't mean to be rude but people like you I really pity. So maybe you could use the few brain cells you have and take advantage of the knowledge I have given you now. Good luck.
oh I guess I got all my priorities all wrong. Please enlighten me to the things that matter to you like alone time with a Men's health magazine and eating cheesies

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09-08-2011, 06:22 PM
  #149
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Wow you talk about loosing touch with reality but do you not remember Chara's first few years with the Sens? I do he was a big slow clumsy D and he blossomed into IMO the best D-man in the league. So here goes you sir have been severely thrown for a loop by the MAJOR D exceptions to the rule of late with Doughty, Myers and Subban because the far majority of Defense men take 3-5 years to learn to be a complete player. It's the defensive part of their game that takes the longest to learn and in Schenn's case I'd say he is ahead of the curve in that department. As far as the trade proposal its a big no simply because no team EVER trades a top 5 pick that soon, it just doesn't happen. I can honestly see Schenn being an all star D some time in the next 3 years and every year there after for a good 6-10.
I'm not loosing touch with anything nor am I losing touch with anything.

"let's be reality" as folks here would say in jest, Luke Schenn could end up being one of the better defensive defenseman in the league in his prime, but superstar status is a level that is not easily reached. Outside of Lidstrom and Chara, can you name anyone else that is unequivocally a legit superstar defenseman at this present time?

Drew Doughty could reach that status some day, he's shown flashes of it. Outside of him, I have a hard time saying anyone else, the rest have rumblings of discussions about potentially being one some day but that's mostly just wishful thinking.

Luke Schenn does not fit here.

I guess I should have a crazy head in the clouds notion that Kris Letang is going to be a superstar defenseman, eh?

PS: Being named to the All-star game means very very little these days thanks to social media. Mike Komisarek is an All-star defenseman...do you really think that title means anything at this point?

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09-08-2011, 06:24 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by LilySmoov View Post
Dude, didn't you read what Vsevolod Bobrov said? Schenn will never be a super-/all-star, presumably because he lead the league in giveaways and only scored 22 points as a 21 year old playing on a relatively poor team. Try and dispute an air-tight argument like that.

Seriously.

Go on.

Do it.

I bet you can't.

You can't 'cause it's air-tight.
yea your right but my god look at Chara's first 3 years with NYI and compare Schenn's with the Leafs and Schenn comes out ahead so with his AIRTIGHT argument Schenn has absolutely no chance at becoming an all-star but he is actually ahead of Chara's development curve and IMO Chara is the best D in the game. Thomas and Chara were the 2 biggest reasons the B's won, I would bet that if it was even a slight down grade to say Rinne and Weber or Doughty the B's loose to Van but off topic

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