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proposal- holik to carolina

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Old
08-15-2004, 07:49 PM
  #1
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proposal- holik to carolina

to carolina: holik and 1/2 his salary and greg moore or some -b-prospect
to nyr: vasicek, zigomanis, and 2nd or 3rd rd in 2005

something like that, add or take away whatvever is neccessary to make the trade happen if it were to come down to it.

since carolina was in negotiations with allsion and obviousley are looking for a center since they moved francis. not saying holik is francis's replacement better bet for that ofcourse is allison, but from what i hear allison is still in bad shape with whip lash and is not cleared to play so carolina wont be signing him anytime soon. my point is carolina could badly need a vet center holik can put up a 50 or so pint season and be there checking center which could help them out alot.

and for us we get vasicek excellent #2 center man but can play #1 line minues if he has to, zigomanis good prospect wityh good upside , if he could make the squad that means lundmark can move to left wing and zigomanis could center the 3rd line

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08-15-2004, 07:53 PM
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homerneedsdonut
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That would be a poor trade for us. I believe having too many young players will hurt our chance of developing them. We barely have any vet forwards as it is.

 
Old
08-15-2004, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
to carolina: holik and 1/2 his salary and greg moore or some -b-prospect
to nyr: vasicek, zigomanis, and 2nd or 3rd rd in 2005
Can't say this deal really makes sense for either team.

Carolina needs a center, but they can probably have Alison for $3-4 million or so (that's what appears to be the going rate for centermen these days). Why would they throw away a solid top-six forward, just 24 years old, with size for Holik? Forget the rest of the sweeteners, I can't imagine rebuilding Carolina doing it straight up.

From NYR perspective, as the previous poster noted, you've just thrown another youngster into an already very green Rangres squad...and you've hurt team defense substantially by taking away Holik.

I dunno... personally I think Holik, if he goes, he has to go to a big market team like TOR, PHI, DET, COL, LA, etc. Preferably one with Cup dreams and a weakness at center ice...

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08-15-2004, 08:07 PM
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Agree. I think if anything the team should look at packaging Poti and Lundmark for perhaps Morrison. Nylander will fit with Jagr. We have lots of players that fit the checking role and can play with Holik. However, if idiot Sather gets Prucha over here to play on the Jagr line then who does Balej play with? Seems we should make a deal for another play making center instead of trading Holik away. Even with Morrison, Jagr, Holik and Nylander that still leaves 8 spots for young kids to win.

 
Old
08-15-2004, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by homerneedsdonut
That would be a poor trade for us. I believe having too many young players will hurt our chance of developing them. We barely have any vet forwards as it is.
with the moving of holik would clear 5 mill or so on the pay roll that could be used to sign a role playing vet and not keep that ***** holik , most likely for the 4th line maybe 3rd. i would rather go with more youth on offense and have 3 vets and 3 kids on defense, instead of 4 youths and 2 vets.

Also NYR does not have many top prospects so it would hurt no ones chances, the more the better. and who says these prospects are gonna become any good , we need prospects better ones than we got now, if not better than equal. nyr does not have that great of talent coming up, i mean some top guys but still. the more youth and talent the more that it can help nyr acquire stronger young players through trade. im sure if blackie works out to be a #1 montoya will be moved for a good prospect.

i think sather is higher on blackie than montoya, and the only reason he went ( well really maloney , but sather is gm im sure he knew what was going on)and drafted montoya was because they are a bit nervous about blackies shoulder problem that he is going through. if one works out the other is gone . thats basically it. and i think they are still relying on blackie foir the #1 role, and i hope he works out. then we can all say good bye to montoya and hello who ever comes , montoya will fetch a very good young player or prospect.

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08-15-2004, 08:31 PM
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the rangers don't need to save $4 mil to sign a role player, the payroll is down like $40 mil...if they want to sign someone they could easily do it.

and there is no way carolina would make that deal. there is no way they would be looking to add that much salary

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08-15-2004, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NYR469
and there is no way carolina would make that deal. there is no way they would be looking to add that much salary
and that much salary is what?? about 4mill or so...can u let me know, when they(carolina) been looking to acquire allsion who will easily cost 3.5-4 mill with bonuses most likely. so do u really kow what u are saying? money is obviousley not that big of a deal for one player. like i said allison will cost almost the same amount. and if u read my post right i said NYR PAYS 1/2 THE SALARY, did u see that?

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08-15-2004, 09:20 PM
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Holik and poti plus a second rd pick for THORTON

I think he can be had at the trade dealine if we are at the same postion as last year for a prime prospect and a team's second round pick. Also I would be talking to Boston about Thorton for Holik and Poti combo with New york maybe adding second round pick if need to complete the deal....

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08-15-2004, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by thrill89
I think he can be had at the trade dealine if we are at the same postion as last year for a prime prospect and a team's second round pick. Also I would be talking to Boston about Thorton for Holik and Poti combo with New york maybe adding second round pick if need to complete the deal....
i think the oonly problem with that is the amount of money holik and poti cost compared to just thonton who will cost a bit , but that deal would be very fair. i assume nyr would have to eat a majority of holiks salary, maybe more than 1/2.

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08-15-2004, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thrill89
I would be talking to Boston about Thorton for Holik and Poti combo with New york maybe adding second round pick if need to complete the deal....
Yes but Boston wouldn't be talking to you. That package for Joe Thornton is laughable.

1st: Boston has been lining up its contract for the past 3 years to get itself cap space. They will not take on Holik's salary and they have no desire to swap one of the game's best 1st line centers for one of the games best 3rd line centers.

2nd: Poti doesn't carry the value you need to pull off this trade. He's an offensively gifted borderline #2. He is also a major defensive liability.

If you want a young superstar, please be prepared to offer something you really don't want to give. That's what it costs. Start with next year's #1, add Tyutin and Jessiman. At that point you're in the ballpark for any bidding war that will most definitely start over Thornton.

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08-16-2004, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dedalus
Yes but Boston wouldn't be talking to you. That package for Joe Thornton is laughable.

1st: Boston has been lining up its contract for the past 3 years to get itself cap space. They will not take on Holik's salary and they have no desire to swap one of the game's best 1st line centers for one of the games best 3rd line centers.

2nd: Poti doesn't carry the value you need to pull off this trade. He's an offensively gifted borderline #2. He is also a major defensive liability.

If you want a young superstar, please be prepared to offer something you really don't want to give. That's what it costs. Start with next year's #1, add Tyutin and Jessiman. At that point you're in the ballpark for any bidding war that will most definitely start over Thornton.

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08-16-2004, 01:11 AM
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what good is it for us if we trade prospects in the deal, even if it's someone low like Greg Moore, it makes little sense for us to be including prospects specially for what we get in return

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08-16-2004, 07:39 AM
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I'm surprised no one has yet chimed in with the reality that Carolina cannot begin to afford the contract, not even if they were only on the hook for $5 million. They run a pretty tight ship there as it is, and already regret the contract they gave to Brind'Amour (in the neighborhood of $5 million/yr). They are interested in Allison only insofar as he might be an elite center possibility who would come cheap due to health concerns. They cannot afford Holik, not unless NYR picked up 50-60% of the contract, which will not happen.

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08-16-2004, 07:54 AM
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I would never trade Jessiman and Tyutin for Thornton. Teams more now then ever show you win with depth. Especially on defense. Thornton has been a non factor twice already in the playoffs. That takes his value down a lot. Great in the regular season and poor in the playoffs doesn't get you two or three top prospects in return.

I have little if no interest in Thornton if Jessiman or Tyutin is involved. Thornton can be a great player at times but he still can be shut down by tough defenses if he doesn't have a lot of help. Thornton is no Jagr who can still beat tough defenses single handed at times. Not so much as he did before but he still can do it.

The most I would offer for Thornton would be Holik, Poti and Lundmark. That's it. Anything more would be stupid. Especially with the CBA. You probably won't be able to tie up a ton of money in one player anymore when this is all said and done.

 
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08-16-2004, 07:56 AM
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Funny how on this thread we are wishing to unload our salary eating vets, and in another thread I arguing about the newest addition to that club, Nylander.

This team just can't help itself and what is really scary is that there are no fans who buy into the same theory now as well.

Forgive me if i am still not convinced this team is serious about/capable of rebuilding once this labor situation gets worked out.

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08-16-2004, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
and that much salary is what?? about 4mill or so...can u let me know, when they(carolina) been looking to acquire allsion who will easily cost 3.5-4 mill with bonuses most likely. so do u really kow what u are saying? money is obviousley not that big of a deal for one player. like i said allison will cost almost the same amount. and if u read my post right i said NYR PAYS 1/2 THE SALARY, did u see that?
first there is a HUGE difference between paying $3.5 mil for a #1 center and paying $4.5 mil for a checking center...

second, why would any team trade away 2 young players so they can pay holik $4.5 mil, when they could sign allison for virtually the same $$ and keep the 2 kids making the team significantly better than it would be after making this deal...

third, even if the rangers pay 100% of holik's salary, it is almost certain that if there is any kind of cap the full amount would count against carolina's payroll...so it might only cost them $4.5 mil but it would still be a $9 mil hit against the cap

and why would the rangers trade arguably their only veteran leader for another 2nd line center and a fringe player and then throw in $$ on top of that?

imo this deal makes little sense for the rangers and makes absolutely no sense for carolina...imo both sides are better off not making this deal

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08-16-2004, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrill89
I think he can be had at the trade dealine if we are at the same postion as last year for a prime prospect and a team's second round pick. Also I would be talking to Boston about Thorton for Holik and Poti combo with New york maybe adding second round pick if need to complete the deal....
if boston had the $$ to take holik & poti in return they wouldn't be shopping thornton (not that they are)...

they'll want a package of cheap, young talent in return if they ever decide to move thornton (which imo is unlikely)

realistically the only way i see thornton becoming available is if the ufa age is lower and then he becomes a ufa in a year or 2

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08-16-2004, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by in the hall
what good is it for us if we trade prospects in the deal, even if it's someone low like Greg Moore, it makes little sense for us to be including prospects specially for what we get in return
trading away a prospect isn't really a problem as long as the return is right...

we've built up a decent amount of depth in some areas in the system, so there is nothing wrong with dealing from areas of strength to fill other needs.

we've got a bunch of 3rd/4th liners and 4/5/6 dmen so we can use some of them in trades if the right deal is there.

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08-16-2004, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Edge
Funny how on this thread we are wishing to unload our salary eating vets, and in another thread I arguing about the newest addition to that club, Nylander.

This team just can't help itself and what is really scary is that there are no fans who buy into the same theory now as well.

Forgive me if i am still not convinced this team is serious about/capable of rebuilding once this labor situation gets worked out.
Edge,

I talked about this last week. I am convinced that from Dolan to Sather to the fans, that the mindset here is to get into the playoffs. Everything else is secondary, just like aways. You can sense it from management and from the fans.
Especially the fans.

Depressing, to say the least.

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08-16-2004, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by homerneedsdonut
The most I would offer for Thornton would be Holik, Poti and Lundmark. That's it.
Well, then you are not getting Thorton, are you?

"I would never trade Jessiman and Tyutin for Thornton."

You would not. Almost any person involved in the sport of hockey would jump on that and not look back. Jessiman and Tyutin together are not enough to get half of Thorton.

"Great in the regular season and poor in the playoffs doesn't get you two or three top prospects in return. "

3 top prospects are at the minimal of what it would take. You're foregtting that Thorton is up there with the Forsbergs, Sakics, and Sundins of the world.

"Thornton can be a great player at times but he still can be shut down by tough defenses if he doesn't have a lot of help. Thornton is no Jagr who can still beat tough defenses single handed at times."

1. What top player HAS NOT been shut down by a top defense or two in this time?
2. When was the last time that Jagr, single-handedly, beat a tough defense?

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08-16-2004, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by homerneedsdonut
I would never trade Jessiman and Tyutin for Thornton. Teams more now then ever show you win with depth. Especially on defense. Thornton has been a non factor twice already in the playoffs. That takes his value down a lot. Great in the regular season and poor in the playoffs doesn't get you two or three top prospects in return.

I have little if no interest in Thornton if Jessiman or Tyutin is involved. Thornton can be a great player at times but he still can be shut down by tough defenses if he doesn't have a lot of help. Thornton is no Jagr who can still beat tough defenses single handed at times. Not so much as he did before but he still can do it.

The most I would offer for Thornton would be Holik, Poti and Lundmark. That's it. Anything more would be stupid. Especially with the CBA. You probably won't be able to tie up a ton of money in one player anymore when this is all said and done.
That is such a joke that's not even worth talking about. On top of everthing else, Thornton played in the playoffs with one shoulder.

Now let me this. You would not give up Tyutin and Jessiman? You're sure you don't want to rethink that over a bit??????????????????

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08-16-2004, 10:55 AM
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All this talk is pie in the sky, anyway.

IF the current impasse between the owners and players gets resolved, AND the Rangers suck horribly by the trading deadline, I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing and able to ship out a few more players, Holik being one of them.

Until then I think the Rangers stay pat.

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08-16-2004, 11:22 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Well, then you are not getting Thorton, are you?
Scott Thornton, yes.

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08-16-2004, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Well, then you are not getting Thorton, are you?
Exactly. If you're not going to offer value in return, the whole proposition is pointless. Joe Thornton for Holik, Poti, and Lundmark is a joke.

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08-16-2004, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kazo
Edge,

I talked about this last week. I am convinced that from Dolan to Sather to the fans, that the mindset here is to get into the playoffs. Everything else is secondary, just like aways. You can sense it from management and from the fans.
Especially the fans.

Depressing, to say the least.
that might be true for some fans but i think most fans, or atleast the knowledgable ones, want a rebuild and realize that suffering thru a rebuild is the only way the team will ever get better...do they want to miss the playoffs again? no, but the fans that understand the situation realize that going for the quick fix will result in us missing the playoffs anyway, atleast by rebuilding we have a shot to be better down the road.

and saying that we need to try to be somewhat competitive and shouldn't be aiming at finishing deadlast doesn't mean that you want to make a push for the playoffs...most of the fans supporting the signing of a few free agents are talking about 2 or 3 to help make us a bit more respectable, not the 10+ that it would take to make this team a playoff contender.

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