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Old
10-31-2011, 04:31 AM
  #101
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Come on, NHL teams draft a lot of Swedes because of the agreement now in force and it's easier to get them. Last year's WJC Team Sweden had pretty much all drafted players. Russia had just six. I highly doubt that team Sweden was better than Russia, and also I do think that most of Team Russia would have been drafted if they were Swedes. Do you really think that Panarin, Burdasov, Pivtsakin etc are so worse than Swede players not to get any draft consideration? Be serious, you know that Burdasov, Panarin, Pivtsakin, Zaitsev, etc, would have been drafted if they'd come from Sweden.
It's easier to get them? Teams are drafting from Sweden because their is a large surplus of talent there. That's the main reason. Yes, there is no political issues so drafting is made easier, but they don't draft Swedes because "He will for sure come over", they draft them because they are producing many good players.

Looking at the depth last year, players like Johan Larsson, Fasth, Cehlin, Lander, Friberg, Lindberg, Rakell, Klingberg are all prospects who have prospects of either playing in the NHL or playing for the national team one day. I look at Russia and frankly a player like Burdasov doesn't really compare that well with the above. I like Panarin and agree he certainly should talent wise should be drafted. The totals of drafted Russians is artificially low, but i still look at the bottom of the Swedish rosters and see that those players are better players than the bottom of the Russian roster. Russia was far more top heavy than Sweden.

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10-31-2011, 07:38 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
the bottom of the Swedish rosters and see that those players are better players than the bottom of the Russian roster. Russia was far more top heavy than Sweden.
Ok so why we won? You don't win in 2, you win with the whole team. Yes, Kuzya and Tarasenko did most of the job, but Panarin scored two, Bobkov was good, Shikin had some good games, Burdasov as well, etc., etc., etc...

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10-31-2011, 07:40 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Most teams who win events don't do it like Russia did last year. They could have lost all 3 big games. Finland outplayed them for nesrly 60 minutes, Sweden were the better team for large stretches and got lazy, Canada were cruising for 2 periods.

Yes it seems absurd to say "Take out X and Y" and they don't win, but Russia were so dependant two players (More so than any previous winner i can remember) that it seems apt. Take out Canada's best player (Probably Schenn) and they still make the finals. Take our the best US player and they have the depth to make up for it. Sweden lost Landeskog early and were still IMO a better balanced and greater depth team than Russia.
you obviously didnt watch last year Subway games between Russia and CHL Teams. There were no Kuznetsov nor Tarasenko but Russia beat QMHJL and WHL teams(which were pretty close by skills level to team Canada) and were even in second game against OHL selection( in first game they were most definitely out of contitions because they had game in evening against QMHJL and after that long trip by buss to another place where they had game against OHL team), so they were able to beat them with other leaders and without 2 star prospects. Team Russia was talented and very hard working unit and best when it matters most! Period!

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10-31-2011, 07:59 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post

Yes it seems absurd to say "Take out X and Y" and they don't win,
I dont like this argument. It is problem of national federations which are not able to make a deal with NHL. It is such a huge problem to release best juniors from NHL clubs for 2 weeks? I dont think so.. every national league do it, why not NHL? I would not blame RHF that they brought best juniors.. it is good for WJC.. I blame NHL IIHF because these organisations make trouble all the time (especially NHL).

PS: pls dot use argument that juniors in NHL clubs has argeement and are paid by NHL clubs.. the same situation is in Elitserien and KHL etc. And NHL loose money? who cares? me not

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10-31-2011, 08:30 AM
  #105
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I thing our friend fan of Sweden is a little off-line in the argument.

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10-31-2011, 08:58 AM
  #106
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I'm guessing the poster Garl just hacked into J17 Vs Proclamation's account!!!

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10-31-2011, 10:05 AM
  #107
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Russia-Sweden was a even matchup last years wjc. Sweden won in the groupstage allthough I do remember that Russia was slightly better in that game, then Russia won the semifinals that was a even affair. I don't think Swedens depth players was any better than Russias to be honest. I actually remember being surprised by the quality of Russias d-men (that I originally though was a weakness for the team).

Sweden has had 72 players drafted in the last three drafts, Russia 24. Yet I think the development systems is pretty evenly matched (Sweden develops better d-men, Russia better forwards atm). It all comes down to the russian factor. This isn't going to change I reckon.

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10-31-2011, 10:10 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerupmurray View Post
Russia-Sweden was a even matchup last years wjc. Sweden won in the groupstage allthough I do remember that Russia was slightly better in that game, then Russia won the semifinals that was a even affair. I don't think Swedens depth players was any better than Russias to be honest. I actually remember being surprised by the quality of Russias d-men (that I originally though was a weakness for the team).

Sweden has had 72 players drafted in the last three drafts, Russia 24. Yet I think the development systems is pretty evenly matched (Sweden develops better d-men, Russia better forwards atm). It all comes down to the russian factor. This isn't going to change I reckon.
nore does it need to change, I dunno how about you, but I prefer Russian products staying home, rather than ruining their game by trying to adopt to NA style. Great example is Ovechkin, from a multideminsional superstar turned into one-dimensional clown-show.

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10-31-2011, 10:15 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
In the last 5 years, the Russian Junior squad has peformed rather indifferently. Certainly not up the upmost consistent high quality one might expect.

Last year was great and i was very happy to see such a result, but must also reason with the fact that the event was won almost purely on the shoulders of Kuznetsov and Tarasenko. Exclude those two, and you aren't making it past Finland. I remember in the early stages of the event, everyone was saying how meh Russia looked and discussing the issues within the Russian development system. Yes, they eventually won, but it was an event won on many "coin flips" (situations that could have gone either direction in the final 3 games). Kuznetsov and Tarasenko were absolutely spectacular. It's a gold medal and it certainly highlighted a new found spirit within the camp and a better selection policy, but Russia in terms of overall ability, were IMO clearly the 4th best team there.

Just look at the names from last year. Orlov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko ; all future National team players for sure. Outside that? Paranin impressed me (could certainly become a national player one day), but nothing else really stood out. The overall depth of the team was in individual talent way behind the other Big 3 IMO.

This years potential squad might not have the same success, but i think it's a much more individually talented team that will in 10 years time, have far greater individual career success. Im no expert of course, and may be wrong, but thats just what i see.
Sorry, but it seems as though you are starting to contradict yourself. First you say that Russia hasn't been producing good hockey players in the last 5 years. Then, you turn around and say that Russia has produced Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and Orlov, "all future National team players for sure." Which is it? It can't be both.

You say that Russia falls well below the "Big 3" in overall depth and talent. Take the Semi-Final matchup between Russia and Sweden, for example. When Russia defeated Sweden, while Tarasenko and Kuznetsov certainly contributed, it was players like Golubev, Shikin, Sobchenko, Bocharov and others who sparked the win. At no time during the course of the game did it seem as though Sweden had better depth or talent than Russia. They managed to get a lead in the third period, but they couldn't hold it. Russia was the better team on the day that it counted most. NHL draft statistics are irrelevant, for the reasons that have already been discussed.

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10-31-2011, 10:31 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Most teams who win events don't do it like Russia did last year. They could have lost all 3 big games. Finland outplayed them for nesrly 60 minutes, Sweden were the better team for large stretches and got lazy, Canada were cruising for 2 periods.

Yes it seems absurd to say "Take out X and Y" and they don't win, but Russia were so dependant two players (More so than any previous winner i can remember) that it seems apt. Take out Canada's best player (Probably Schenn) and they still make the finals. Take our the best US player and they have the depth to make up for it. Sweden lost Landeskog early and were still IMO a better balanced and greater depth team than Russia.
It's funny, but before I started reading your posts, I always felt that Swedish posters on this board were the most fair-minded, objective and honest of any nation represented. Take Cheerupmurray, for example. His posts are always fair, honest and objective - never trying to pump up his side at the expense of the other side. I'm sorry to say that your posts seem to be an exception, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Swedish posters agree with me on that!

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10-31-2011, 12:24 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Ok so why we won? You don't win in 2, you win with the whole team. Yes, Kuzya and Tarasenko did most of the job, but Panarin scored two, Bobkov was good, Shikin had some good games, Burdasov as well, etc., etc., etc...
Without Kuznetsov/Tarasenko you don't beat Finland or Canada. It's not debtable, those two literally hauled you over the line.

The Sweden game was much closer, and Russian did perform better as a team. Bobkov had a good 3rd period against Canada, but Canada didn't really test him that much.

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10-31-2011, 12:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
you obviously didnt watch last year Subway games between Russia and CHL Teams. There were no Kuznetsov nor Tarasenko but Russia beat QMHJL and WHL teams(which were pretty close by skills level to team Canada) and were even in second game against OHL selection( in first game they were most definitely out of contitions because they had game in evening against QMHJL and after that long trip by buss to another place where they had game against OHL team), so they were able to beat them with other leaders and without 2 star prospects. Team Russia was talented and very hard working unit and best when it matters most! Period!
I didn't watch those games. I have not discussed those games either. I'd also say that whilst it was an impressive feat, firstly they wern't playing Canada as an entity, and secondly, the overall calibre of players involved in the long-term will see the WHL/OHL produce more quality players/success from those involved.

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10-31-2011, 12:31 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont like this argument. It is problem of national federations which are not able to make a deal with NHL. It is such a huge problem to release best juniors from NHL clubs for 2 weeks? I dont think so.. every national league do it, why not NHL? I would not blame RHF that they brought best juniors.. it is good for WJC.. I blame NHL IIHF because these organisations make trouble all the time (especially NHL).

PS: pls dot use argument that juniors in NHL clubs has argeement and are paid by NHL clubs.. the same situation is in Elitserien and KHL etc. And NHL loose money? who cares? me not
You missed my point and i think you fail to understand where i was going. Im simply saying that Russia was far more dependent on two players than any other big nation at the event. I did not bring up the NHL in the context you think i did.

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10-31-2011, 12:34 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I'm guessing the poster Garl just hacked into J17 Vs Proclamation's account!!!
It's funny really. I take interest in reading what many of you have to say, and yet, when somebody decides to take a different approach and suggest the limitations of an aspect of Russian hockey recently, everyone become very defensive. Yet these same posters will often then descend into a tirade against their own system at times. It seems like many on this sub-section have a displeasure of outside critical analysis. Sometimes i am amazed by the lack of ability to self-analyze.

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10-31-2011, 12:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Sorry, but it seems as though you are starting to contradict yourself. First you say that Russia hasn't been producing good hockey players in the last 5 years. Then, you turn around and say that Russia has produced Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and Orlov, "all future National team players for sure." Which is it? It can't be both.

You say that Russia falls well below the "Big 3" in overall depth and talent. Take the Semi-Final matchup between Russia and Sweden, for example. When Russia defeated Sweden, while Tarasenko and Kuznetsov certainly contributed, it was players like Golubev, Shikin, Sobchenko, Bocharov and others who sparked the win. At no time during the course of the game did it seem as though Sweden had better depth or talent than Russia. They managed to get a lead in the third period, but they couldn't hold it. Russia was the better team on the day that it counted most. NHL draft statistics are irrelevant, for the reasons that have already been discussed.
Where to start.

I have never stated that Russia hasn't produced good hockey players recently. i simply stated i feel Russia has produced less overall depth and quality than other nations. I feel this is a fair assumption.

Perhaps you need to learn the true meaning of contradiction. Who knows.

The players you listed would not have led Russia to victory of the other two wern't there. In terms of talent, they are inferior to many of the depth players on Sweden etc. A player like Fasth or J. Larsson has IMO more pro potential than the names listed. Again, feel free to disagree, but it seems you cannot understand the crux of my argument and thus we are led into a never ending cycle of repetiveness.

NHL draft statistics ARE NOT IRRELEVANT. They are misleading, yes. However a statistic can always be informative and useful if one applies reasoning and understanding to it. If you understand the limitations of the statistic before you use it, it is useful. Dismissing such statistics before this is unwise. I fully understand the statistic has it's limitations, but it still reflects the state of a programme to some extent.

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10-31-2011, 12:43 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It's funny, but before I started reading your posts, I always felt that Swedish posters on this board were the most fair-minded, objective and honest of any nation represented. Take Cheerupmurray, for example. His posts are always fair, honest and objective - never trying to pump up his side at the expense of the other side. I'm sorry to say that your posts seem to be an exception, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Swedish posters agree with me on that!
I am not Swedish. I have no affliation to Sweden at all (Nor any "hockey country"). Though, i find it humerous that you link an objective compliment to Sweden and it's programme and assume i have origins there. How quaint and useful for you. Would probably be useful if you bothered to take the time to understand an others angle before making brash conclusions.

I assume if you see me make a post defending something or someone affliated to Russian hockey in the near future, you will assume i am Russian and thus believe me to be unfair, biased and unable to be objective? I probably think not.

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10-31-2011, 02:17 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I am not Swedish. I have no affliation to Sweden at all (Nor any "hockey country"). Though, i find it humerous that you link an objective compliment to Sweden and it's programme and assume i have origins there. How quaint and useful for you. Would probably be useful if you bothered to take the time to understand an others angle before making brash conclusions.

I assume if you see me make a post defending something or someone affliated to Russian hockey in the near future, you will assume i am Russian and thus believe me to be unfair, biased and unable to be objective? I probably think not.
If you are not Swedish, then I presume you are from Reading, England. If that is true, then I don't how much exposure you get to ice hockey in England. Your nationality doesn't really matter. I assume your motive is just to troll the website by offering outrageously false analysis that pisses Russian fans off. To that extent, I guess its fair to say that you have been somewhat successful. I also discount your assessment that Russia does not belong in the "Big 3," along with the United States and Canada.

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10-31-2011, 03:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If you are not Swedish, then I presume you are from Reading, England. If that is true, then I don't how much exposure you get to ice hockey in England. Your nationality doesn't really matter. I assume your motive is just to troll the website by offering outrageously false analysis that pisses Russian fans off. To that extent, I guess its fair to say that you have been somewhat successful. I also discount your assessment that Russia does not belong in the "Big 3," along with the United States and Canada.
Seriously? In what aspect have i been trolling? Is this what the site comes down to? Someone disagrees with your opinion and thus they must be trolling? I live in a non hockey country. It doesn't naturally devalue the worth of an opinion. Offering false information? There is no false information, we are discussing a subject which cannot be quantified. How dumb do you want to be? AND if it could be quantified, the best measurement of depth is shockingly, the NHL draft, right? Seems you want to have your cake, and eat it in vast sums.

Secondly, i did not say Russia does not belong in that group. I stated that i feel Russia at the Junior level in the past 4-5 years has had weaker depth than the other "Big three". You suggest i troll, and yet you have no reading comprehension at all. You can't seem to intepret anything correctly. Perhaps it is the language barrier.

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10-31-2011, 04:15 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Seriously? In what aspect have i been trolling? Is this what the site comes down to? Someone disagrees with your opinion and thus they must be trolling? I live in a non hockey country. It doesn't naturally devalue the worth of an opinion. Offering false information? There is no false information, we are discussing a subject which cannot be quantified. How dumb do you want to be? AND if it could be quantified, the best measurement of depth is shockingly, the NHL draft, right? Seems you want to have your cake, and eat it in vast sums.

Secondly, i did not say Russia does not belong in that group. I stated that i feel Russia at the Junior level in the past 4-5 years has had weaker depth than the other "Big three". You suggest i troll, and yet you have no reading comprehension at all. You can't seem to intepret anything correctly. Perhaps it is the language barrier.
Living in a non-hockey country doesn't automatically devalue your opinion, but making simplistic statements based on lack of knowledge of the basis for trends could be a result of living in a country where hockey information is less prevalent. You didn't know that fewer Russian kids are being drafted by the NHL because of the existence of the KHL, and not the lack of available talent. That makes your opinion suspect to me. In the NHL, hockey is a business, and drafting players brings about a potential business investment. Its the fear of drafting someone who, in the end, decides to stay home and play in the KHL that has caused NHL GM's to draft fewer Russian players, and in later rounds. That point is very well documented, and the fact that you took the leap of attributing fewer draft choices to a sudden, miraculous, overnight vanishing of talent severely devalues your hockey opinions IMO.

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10-31-2011, 04:38 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I didn't watch those games. I have not discussed those games either. I'd also say that whilst it was an impressive feat, firstly they wern't playing Canada as an entity, and secondly, the overall calibre of players involved in the long-term will see the WHL/OHL produce more quality players/success from those involved.
then just do it! it might help you to understand what we talking about!

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10-31-2011, 06:59 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post

NHL draft statistics ARE NOT IRRELEVANT. They are misleading, yes. However a statistic can always be informative and useful if one applies reasoning and understanding to it. If you understand the limitations of the statistic before you use it, it is useful. Dismissing such statistics before this is unwise. I fully understand the statistic has it's limitations, but it still reflects the state of a programme to some extent.
Yes, they are irrelevant, 100%. They just state what team picked what player, nothing more, nothing less.

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11-01-2011, 01:50 AM
  #122
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Yes, they are irrelevant, 100%. They just state what team picked what player, nothing more, nothing less.
agree.. look at another bussiness - let us say mobile coprporations .. Nokia hire this guy, that guy etc..does it mean that guy working for Siemens, etc are worse/ better profesionals than guys in Nokia? What is proof? Is it proof that Nokia chose this guy, call him "A"? No, it is not a proof. The same hockey.. is it objective proof about quality of developing programmes of national federations if NHL clubs chose this guy over another one? It is not! It is just media game which NHL has made for years.

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11-01-2011, 06:23 AM
  #123
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at this point NHL draft is more and more like the CHL draft when it comes to Russia - draft pick is used not on the basis of talent, but on the potential of coming over, so draft statistics are a pure nonsense.

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11-01-2011, 12:41 PM
  #124
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at this point NHL draft is more and more like the CHL draft when it comes to Russia - draft pick is used not on the basis of talent, but on the potential of coming over, so draft statistics are a pure nonsense.
Correct.

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11-01-2011, 01:15 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Living in a non-hockey country doesn't automatically devalue your opinion, but making simplistic statements based on lack of knowledge of the basis for trends could be a result of living in a country where hockey information is less prevalent. You didn't know that fewer Russian kids are being drafted by the NHL because of the existence of the KHL, and not the lack of available talent. That makes your opinion suspect to me. In the NHL, hockey is a business, and drafting players brings about a potential business investment. Its the fear of drafting someone who, in the end, decides to stay home and play in the KHL that has caused NHL GM's to draft fewer Russian players, and in later rounds.
Of course i knew that KHL/NHL politics has lessened the total Russian draft pick count. Do you ever bother to read? It's a shame your reading isn't as good as your writing.

I've stated time and time again that the political environment is the major factor for the dwindling numbers. But instead you decide to make as many asinine interpretations as possible.

I don't need a lecture on what the Russian factor is. You aren't enlightening me on the subject. I personally believe the NHL is not wise with the "Russian factor" policy, because any major or significant Russia talent has as of yet, failed not to make the journey to North America. If the Russian prospects are good enough and talented enough, generally they will come to North America. The bigger issue at hand is patently A) The flight factor, which is heavily linked with B) Ability to manage and develop talent. Clearly teams like Columbus, Phoenix and Nashville either can't develop players, or can't manage them, thus the flight factor becomes significant. This is where IMO the true issue with drafting Russian players actually is. A team like Columbus under current management shouldn't bother drafting Russian players ; it will fail.


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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
That point is very well documented, and the fact that you took the leap of attributing fewer draft choices to a sudden, miraculous, overnight vanishing of talent severely devalues your hockey opinions IMO.

Reading comprehension. I have countless times said that it has been a major factor. Yet instead you pretend you didn't see the text so your little argument makes apparent "sense". All i have said, is that outside of the major reason, i think it is slightly naive to suggest a very large and obvious statistical trend can be based upon one single event/cause. I assume you will all ignore this point in venture to feel secure, but statistics mean many things, and every other national programme has the NHL draft as an excellent measurement for the healt of their youth system. Russia is patently different, yet we cannot decide to create an exclusive set fo rules that completely alienate Russia from common measurements of analysis. To me, Sweden has produced greater depth in prospects in the past 4-5 years, and i'd venture to say that even if Russia had the same political stance with the NHL as Sweden, they would have few draft totals. In my opinion, the Swedish draft classes have simply been deeper.

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