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Old
09-13-2011, 08:16 PM
  #26
LatvianTwist
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That's incorrect. Campbell is eligible to play in the AHL. He wasn't drafted out of the CHL.
Ah, wasn't aware of that. So Oleksiak is as well, or no?

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I disagree.
Different POVs. I don't really follow the ECHL, and I think it would be better for a skater's development because of playing with older guys, but not really sure about goalies. I think you'll play against more skilled offensive players in the OHL, and it might benefit it the long run. But seeing how well Bachman and Besko did there, it should definitely be an option.

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What you describe could've easily been done this offseason had things gone well.
True, but I still don't think Campbell is ready for any kind of pro hockey yet. I'd rather see us play it safe and keep him in juniors then bring him up too fast.

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09-13-2011, 08:26 PM
  #27
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Ah, wasn't aware of that. So Oleksiak is as well, or no?
Yes, he is.
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Different POVs. I don't really follow the ECHL, and I think it would be better for a skater's development because of playing with older guys, but not really sure about goalies. I think you'll play against more skilled offensive players in the OHL, and it might benefit it the long run.
Well, whether something is good or bad for development and which league is better are 2 different things. I think you've got it backwards in terms of skaters/goalies. Judging by how the ECHL is primarily used (prospect-wise) for goalie development there must be something useful about it, namely that the shooters are better. Then again, the defense in front of them is also better and more structured. It's all about acclimating to the pro game.
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True, but I still don't think Campbell is ready for any kind of pro hockey yet.
I don't think he is either. My point is that I think the Stars thought on draft day he would be by now.

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09-13-2011, 08:41 PM
  #28
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Campbell really doesn't matter. We all knew he'd be a 4 year prospect anyways.
I have to disagree with this also. It's easy to say that now, and I remember the reaction after the pick partly emphasizing this long-term view, but I look at the Lehtonen contract and the Campbell selection as connected events. They were separated by a month and a half. I really believe that the Stars thought there was a reasonable chance Campbell could be ready to start in the NHL by autumn 2013. Is that so unrealistic had he performed well at every step of the way? Carey Price played 41 NHL games as a 20 year old. Campbell will be 20 in 2 months. The Stars usually take things slow, but in this case I believe they were absolutely ready and anticipating to fast-track Campbell. Now it's questionable whether he'll be an AHL starter by 2013.

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09-13-2011, 09:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I have to disagree with this also. It's easy to say that now, and I remember the reaction after the pick partly emphasizing this long-term view, but I look at the Lehtonen contract and the Campbell selection as connected events. They were separated by a month and a half. I really believe that the Stars thought there was a reasonable chance Campbell could be ready to start in the NHL by autumn 2013. Is that so unrealistic had he performed well at every step of the way? Carey Price played 41 NHL games as a 20 year old. Campbell will be 20 in 2 months. The Stars usually take things slow, but in this case I believe they were absolutely ready and anticipating to fast-track Campbell. Now it's questionable whether he'll be an AHL starter by 2013.
Honestly, the only reason I ever remember hearing from anyone in the Stars' front office about the Campbell pick was because the team seems to be very successful when they have deep goaltending. Obviously, that can't be the only reason. I think they thought he had the potential to be the third best player in that draft, and that he would be the future of our team (goalie wise), as well as push the other prospects we have.

Price is unique. He was a higher draft pick in arguably a stronger draft (only time will tell, too early, but I think it won't be as strong). He also didn't have three (four if Raycroft stays) great goalies to get past. But he might have been somewhat of an example. I doubt it, though.


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Yes, he is.
Good. If he plays there next year, I'll be sure to make a couple games when they come to town.


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Well, whether something is good or bad for development and which league is better are 2 different things. I think you've got it backwards in terms of skaters/goalies. Judging by how the ECHL is primarily used (prospect-wise) for goalie development there must be something useful about it, namely that the shooters are better. Then again, the defense in front of them is also better and more structured. It's all about acclimating to the pro game.
Harder shots, yes. More accurate? No idea. But I just think if he has a chance to play juniors again, do it. He can always go to the ECHL afterwards, with even more experience.

How old was Bachman when he played there? I know Besko was 18-19, but not sure about Bachman.

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I don't think he is either. My point is that I think the Stars thought on draft day he would be by now.
I'm not so sure about that one. Granted, I doubt they knew they'd have three great goaltending prospects, but they had to have had at least some idea. If they thought he would have proved he was better than all of them by now, then we have some awful scouts. He's good, especially under pressure, but he's not great. Yet.

All in all, Campbell is gonna take another 3-4 years at least to crack the NHL. No one knows exactly what management had in mind drafting him. And both the ECHL and the OHL are great places for him to develop, but I think sticking with guys closer to his own age and getting a chance to be a huge part of his team, as well as one of the older guys in the locker room would probably be better for him. That's how I see it, maybe you see it another way. But who knows. He's got a bright future, but it'll just take a while to really see it.

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09-13-2011, 09:41 PM
  #30
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I don't think of it as Campbell alone but more of if we had Folwer or Gormley then Dallas probably doesn't sign Daley to that god awful contract, our current defense is better and perhaps we go a different direction than defense, defense more defense this past year.

Bernhardt has a say in the draft overall but the later picks are usually heavily influenced by local scouts and cross checkers. Bernhardt focuses on the top of the draft not the bottom and yes he should have been let go for Campbell not because Campbell sucked this year, though that didn't help but because he made the wrong call in the first place. Just like he did when he passed on MSP and Kulikov to take Glennie instead.

Glennie may turn out to be a fine player and a good choice over their careers but I'd still trade him straight up for MSP/Kulikov as would pretty much every one else.
So then are we basically boiling the job of "Head of Amateur Scouting" down to picks 1-45? If all we need the guy for is making a call on the "important" pick then they need to do away with the position. I don't buy it. This guy's entire job is to check and cross check players that his regional scouts put on his radar.

Think about what you're proposing by saying that the later rounds are basically handled by the local scouts. They literally all have a guy who they're willing to argue is worth that pick. The WHL scout can't actually compare his WHL guy to the player being shilled by the OHL scout so it's logistically impossible to claim that the regional/local scouts handle the later rounds. They put in their arguments and the final decision is likely hashed out by HoAS and Les Jackson. Let's give credit where credit is due.

I would agree that HoAS would have a more direct impact on the 1st round pick but let's not get crazy and make it out to be something that it isn't. And let's certainly not subtract from the equation the value of picking good players in the mid-later rounds and the role HoAS plays in that capacity.

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I still don't buy that. I didn't really think ANY team bought into that warped mindset. Considering arguably the greatest defenseman who ever played for the Stars was Russian, it seems rather myopic to close the door on a talent like Kulikov simply because of his origin.
Hockey writer Gare Joyce, who posts on these boards from time to time and covers prospects etc. for ESPN's subscription offerings, reported that had Kulikov not been Russian that he would have been a Star. Aside from saying he had bad information or saying that he flat out made it up, the only conclusion is to take it at face value.

Evaluating that decision itself is worth questioning, agreed. I would caution against annointing Kulikov the would have been answer to our prayers on defense, kid has talent for sure but because he was rushed by Florida (like every prospect they've ever had) he may never reach his full potential. We may still have the better player in four years.


As I said before this is probably much more personal in that Nieuwendyk and Bernhardt had some type of philosophical difference of opinion that they couldn't get past. We'll probably never really know.

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09-13-2011, 09:48 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I have to disagree with this also. It's easy to say that now, and I remember the reaction after the pick partly emphasizing this long-term view, but I look at the Lehtonen contract and the Campbell selection as connected events. They were separated by a month and a half. I really believe that the Stars thought there was a reasonable chance Campbell could be ready to start in the NHL by autumn 2013. Is that so unrealistic had he performed well at every step of the way? Carey Price played 41 NHL games as a 20 year old. Campbell will be 20 in 2 months. The Stars usually take things slow, but in this case I believe they were absolutely ready and anticipating to fast-track Campbell. Now it's questionable whether he'll be an AHL starter by 2013.
I consider myself a pretty optimistic person but if that was what they truly anticipated then they have some serious rose-colored glasses. Selecting a goaltender that high because you think, you hope, you feel in your bones that he is going to be a grade A stud is one thing. Selecting him with a timetable of arrival in mind is beyond ludicrous. If anything, if Bernhardt was pleading that case to Nieuwendyk then Nieuwendyk should have fired him on the spot for trying to sell him snake oil and gone with the defenseman who fell into his lap. Absent of that Nieuwendyk is culpable as well.

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09-13-2011, 09:59 PM
  #32
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So then are we basically boiling the job of "Head of Amateur Scouting" down to picks 1-45? If all we need the guy for is making a call on the "important" pick then they need to do away with the position. I don't buy it. This guy's entire job is to check and cross check players that his regional scouts put on his radar.

Think about what you're proposing by saying that the later rounds are basically handled by the local scouts. They literally all have a guy who they're willing to argue is worth that pick. The WHL scout can't actually compare his WHL guy to the player being shilled by the OHL scout so it's logistically impossible to claim that the regional/local scouts handle the later rounds. They put in their arguments and the final decision is likely hashed out by HoAS and Les Jackson. Let's give credit where credit is due.

I would agree that HoAS would have a more direct impact on the 1st round pick but let's not get crazy and make it out to be something that it isn't. And let's certainly not subtract from the equation the value of picking good players in the mid-later rounds and the role HoAS plays in that capacity.



Hockey writer Gare Joyce, who posts on these boards from time to time and covers prospects etc. for ESPN's subscription offerings, reported that had Kulikov not been Russian that he would have been a Star. Aside from saying he had bad information or saying that he flat out made it up, the only conclusion is to take it at face value.

Evaluating that decision itself is worth questioning, agreed. I would caution against annointing Kulikov the would have been answer to our prayers on defense, kid has talent for sure but because he was rushed by Florida (like every prospect they've ever had) he may never reach his full potential. We may still have the better player in four years.


As I said before this is probably much more personal in that Nieuwendyk and Bernhardt had some type of philosophical difference of opinion that they couldn't get past. We'll probably never really know.
Yeah I believe Joyce when he says that. He used pretty strong language too, I believe it was something to the effect of he could emphasize it strongly enough that Kulikov was their guy.

As far as people mentioning Zubov thats simply not a fair comparison. There was no KHL lure during most of his career and frankly as soon as the stars didn't pay him big bucks despite his doubtful health he himself took off to the KHL, so it must be a pretty big calling for Russian players.

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Old
09-13-2011, 10:31 PM
  #33
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Yea, drafting Russian players with your #8 pick when the new trend was for Russians to stay in Russia is a lot different than trading for a bona fide #1 PMD in the prime of his NA NHL established career 10 years ago. Completely different situations. I don't blame the Stars being warry of Russians nor do I mind the passing of Kulikov.

I don't think they thought Campbell was going to be ready by the time Lehtonen's contract was over either. I believe what Joe said, they truly and utterly believed that Campbell was the 3rd best player in the draft likely to end up a franchise player. It was simple as that.

Plus Joe seems a bit old school in his thinking that Goaltending is #1, bigger = better, etc. He doesn't seem to buy into the recent trends and statistics to not overpay for Goaltending, to not draft Goalies early, etc. Or that the new NHL is all about speed, skating, and skill, considering his recent hard on for size.

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09-13-2011, 10:52 PM
  #34
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Couple points.

First Kulikov isn't some Russian teenager playing in the KHL he was in Canada playing juniors and he wouldn't be there if he didn't want to play in the NHL. Could he turn into a Radulov, yeah but to blackball every Russian who comes over and says he wants to play in the NHL is cutting off a pretty decent talent pool. Trust your conversations with the kid, his coaches, your psychologists, and his friends/family. You can get a good idea of who he is and what he wants. Don't walk away from the Kulikov's of the world because Vishnevsky didn't work out.

Did Bernhardt have a say about later picks? Sure but whiffing on a 4th round pick doesn't make or break either him or the scouts. They're long shots anyway. His reputation and continued employment is focused on his 1st and 2nd round picks. Like it or not he's judged on Glennie, Beskorowany, Chaisson, Campbell, Nemeth, Oleksiak, and Ritche. I like most of those picks but having taken Besko the year before Campbell was the wrong choice. Just like Glennie with MSP/Kulikov was the wrong choice and that along with whatever personal issues there were between Bernhardt and Niewendyk got him fired.

I'm not a Niewendyk as GM fan but in this I applaud him for looking at the situation and saying I can't continue to employ a man who's goalie viewpoint blinds him to better players.

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09-13-2011, 11:03 PM
  #35
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First Kulikov isn't some Russian teenager playing in the KHL he was in Canada playing juniors and he wouldn't be there if he didn't want to play in the NHL. Could he turn into a Radulov, yeah but to blackball every Russian who comes over and says he wants to play in the NHL is cutting off a pretty decent talent pool. Trust your conversations with the kid, his coaches, your psychologists, and his friends/family. You can get a good idea of who he is and what he wants. Don't walk away from the Kulikov's of the world because Vishnevsky didn't work out.
Its presumptuous to assume that this didn't happen though. Its entirely possible their interviews failed to convince them that he was a safe Russian pick.

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09-14-2011, 12:46 AM
  #36
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Actually, I don't know if it has changed, but there was a time when Dallas was the only team not interviewing prospects at all in the combines. Maybe that was Bernhardt, maybe that was Jackson — whom I think is probably just as responsible for the team's drafting record as well.

The Campbell pick could be one that hangs on Bernhardt for a while. Like I said before, anything he won was a short-span tournament and even in the world junior where USA won gold, Campbell didn't get the nod in the gold-medal game, the other guy did. With respect for the kid, I just don't see a superstar goalie there, where Cam Fowler would have looked very good on this D-corps. Bacashuiua was similar in hype with results that I think will mirror Campbell's.

The misses on guys like Martin Vagner and Vishnevskiy also come to mind.

It's about time for some new blood, good move.

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09-14-2011, 12:48 AM
  #37
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And yet Kulikov is plugging away for Florida a terrible franchise. Look I have no idea if they had any interviews with the kid or what he had to say but again I'll reiterate that crossing off all Russians is a mistake. That's a drafting philosophy and I don't know if that comes from Bernhardt, Niewendyk, the former front office, Hicks or what.

As for first round picks and that being Bernhardt's job, screwing up two top ten draft picks gets you fired, not the 172nd selection three years in a row.

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09-14-2011, 12:49 AM
  #38
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Also if Gare Joyce said something, particularly with Kulikov, you can take it as fact. He's not the type to mess around and he has good scouting sources.

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09-14-2011, 01:25 AM
  #39
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Just because Bernhardt was fired doesn't mean he was wrong about Campbell.

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09-14-2011, 01:51 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
First Kulikov isn't some Russian teenager playing in the KHL he was in Canada playing juniors and he wouldn't be there if he didn't want to play in the NHL. Could he turn into a Radulov, yeah but to blackball every Russian who comes over and says he wants to play in the NHL is cutting off a pretty decent talent pool. Trust your conversations with the kid, his coaches, your psychologists, and his friends/family. You can get a good idea of who he is and what he wants. Don't walk away from the Kulikov's of the world because Vishnevsky didn't work out.
Your Radulov example nullifies your point. He played junior in Canada and is THE poster child for what a talented Russian player can do to an NHL franchise by holding their feet to the fire and bolting back home at the earliest convenience. Again, I'm not taking a stance one way or the other regarding incoming NHL players. I do know that the Dallas Stars are not the only franchise wary of young Russians in the draft though.

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Did Bernhardt have a say about later picks? Sure but whiffing on a 4th round pick doesn't make or break either him or the scouts. They're long shots anyway. His reputation and continued employment is focused on his 1st and 2nd round picks. Like it or not he's judged on Glennie, Beskorowany, Chaisson, Campbell, Nemeth, Oleksiak, and Ritche. I like most of those picks but having taken Besko the year before Campbell was the wrong choice. Just like Glennie with MSP/Kulikov was the wrong choice and that along with whatever personal issues there were between Bernhardt and Niewendyk got him fired.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that we should have drafted Campbell in the first round. I was against it then and I still am against drafting goalies in the 1st round on principle. Again, I'm not saying that Bernhardt should have kept his job. All I'm saying is that it's not like his time here was ill spent. He and Les Jackson deserve a lot of credit for some of the picks they've made (and developed) over the years.

Steve Ott
Dan Ellis
Joel Lundvist
Antti Miettinen
Mike Smith
Jussi Jokinen
Trevor Daley
Loui Eriksson
BJ Crombeen
Nik Grossman
Tom Wandell
James Neal
Richard Bachman
Jamie Benn

The list of new guys likely to contribute is lengthy as well. I can't say that all of the early picks have been good, they clearly haven't (especially in hindsight). But let's not lay all of the guilt and none of the credit at the feet of Bernhardt. I respect Joe for making the move, but at the same time IF the Campbell pick was a sticking point at the time it was made I respect him less for having gone along with it. It wasn't even his first draft after being hired as GM. If he has/had philosophical qualms about taking a goaltender in the first round then he should have nutted up and vetoed the pick.

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