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Old
10-01-2011, 03:56 PM
  #201
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So you were thoroughly disappointed last year and the year before right?
Post #200
Last year and the year before we had better line ups and a goalie that was considered one of the best in the NHL. Your comparison doesn't fit at all.

We lost Uppie and Stemp, brought in Chip, Langkow, and Sully. Lost Turris, replaced him with NOBODY. We lost Bryz, we brought in Smith. Our defense was old and slow last year, and we have almost the exact same defense. Where are you getting the idea we look as good as we did last year or the year before?

I was hard on our prospects, and I still thought Mac and Miele looked better than Chip. It is getting ****ing rediculous. Say what you want, I'm confident my negative view of this team will be proven correct in time.

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10-01-2011, 05:06 PM
  #202
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Last year and the year before we had better line ups and a goalie that was considered one of the best in the NHL. Your comparison doesn't fit at all.

We lost Uppie and Stemp, brought in Chip, Langkow, and Sully. Lost Turris, replaced him with NOBODY. We lost Bryz, we brought in Smith. Our defense was old and slow last year, and we have almost the exact same defense. Where are you getting the idea we look as good as we did last year or the year before?

I was hard on our prospects, and I still thought Mac and Miele looked better than Chip. It is getting ****ing rediculous. Say what you want, I'm confident my negative view of this team will be proven correct in time.
I think you're overvaluing Upshall and Stempniak. Besides I think it's entirely possible that POS brings as much productivity as Upshall did and Torres should be able to replace Stempniak while playing a far more physical game. Langkow should replace Belanger and everyone seems to think Gordon is a slightly better option than Fiddler. Losing Turris hurts but that's assuming a breakout. If he didn't, Chipchura is probably as effective player, albeit defensively. All in all our forwards have changed up a bit and I think collectively they are not as offensively talented but I think they are much harder to play against. The latter fits right into the wheel house of a Tippet coached team.

As for the defense, I think it's actually better. I expect Aucoin and Yandle will bring the same this season. They'll get full seasons from Rozsival and Klesla, a tandem which I think is an upgrade over Jovo and Lepisto. Morris, who had a horrible first half last year, should be back to his reliable self again which is a positive gain. OEL should be better this year and could possibly be WAY better. I feel much more comfortable with Schlemko as the 6th/7th now than this time last year as well.

The x-factor is the loss of Bryz, there's no arguing that point and time will indeed tell.

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10-01-2011, 05:38 PM
  #203
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I don't think anyone is happy about Kyle Chipchura or Patrick O'Sullivan making this team. When both were signed, I remember the consensus being "Good for the AHL squad, but **** me if he makes the team."

Well, it looks like they made the team. But there are two reasons for that:

1) Kyle Turris is holding out. Maloney likely went into the offseason thinking signing him was a foregone conclusion. That he's playing hardball throws a wrench into the whole thing.

2) Neither MacLean nor Tikhonov showed enough in the preseason to win a job. I know the rap on Tippett valuing current production over potential and not letting young guys find their groove, but the fact is that Tikhonov and MacLean should be better than Chipchura and O'Sullivan right now, and if either was, he would not have been sent down.

I'm bummed about this too, but I'm bummed that neither Mac nor Tik showed enough to earn a job. Moreover, it's Maloney who makes these decisions, not Tippett. Regardless of Tippett's philosophy, if Maloney thought these guys were good enough to contribute, they'd still be in Arizona today.

Assuming they both clear, this doesn't necessarily mean they'll be in Portland all year, either. Injuries happen, and I imagine they'll be among the first call-ups. Furthermore, if Kyle ****ing Chipchura isn't playing well, I don't think Maloney will bat an eyelash before sending him down.

As for losses and additions, let's ignore the goalie situation for now. It's just not something we want to talk about.

The fair way to do this is to compare this year's roster to the one that started last year.

On defense, Lepisto and Jovanovski are gone, Klesla and Rozsival are in, and OEL should be improved. Jovo had what might have been the worst year of his career, and Lepisto wasn't in Tippett's good graces. Aucoin and Morris are a year older, but that should be offset by continued development from OEL, Schlemko and Yandle. This should be a strength, and better defensively than it was last year.

At forward, Upshall, Fiddler, Turris, Belanger and Stempniak are gone, an average of 13 goals apiece, though Turris could still come back and score at least that much.

Boedker will likely improve on the four goals he scored last year, and 20 isn't out of the question. Torres should be a lock for at least 13, and he could hit 20, too, if he sees enough minutes. Langkow should be good for 15 goals himself, assuming he's healthy (and if not, guess who sees emergency call-up?). I'm expecting O'Sullivan to find himself in Tippett's doghouse almost immediately, but if not, he should be good for 15-20 goals as well. So I'm not really seeing some catastrophic drop in offense here.

I'm not pencilling Chipchura or Gordon in for any meaningful production, but both are at least as tight defensively as anybody who's gone, if not much more so. Langkow and Torres should make this team a tougher squad to play against, too.

I'm expecting, at most, a negligible drop in offense offset by much tighter team defense (and yes, I know puck possession goes a long way to that end, but all of these new guys are more than capable of cycling and grinding). The key powerplay pieces (Yandle, Doan, Whitney) are still here, and the penalty kill should be improved. As long as Mike Smith doesn't totally **** the bed (by no means a given), I don't see why this isn't a playoff team.

This isn't an especially rosy outlook. The Coyotes are not a cup contender, obviously. But I just don't see why there's so much doom and gloom. The sky is not falling. It's almost exactly where it was a year ago.

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Old
10-01-2011, 07:00 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I don't think anyone is happy about Kyle Chipchura or Patrick O'Sullivan making this team. When both were signed, I remember the consensus being "Good for the AHL squad, but **** me if he makes the team."

Well, it looks like they made the team. But there are two reasons for that:

1) Kyle Turris is holding out. Maloney likely went into the offseason thinking signing him was a foregone conclusion. That he's playing hardball throws a wrench into the whole thing.

2) Neither MacLean nor Tikhonov showed enough in the preseason to win a job. I know the rap on Tippett valuing current production over potential and not letting young guys find their groove, but the fact is that Tikhonov and MacLean should be better than Chipchura and O'Sullivan right now, and if either was, he would not have been sent down.

I'm bummed about this too, but I'm bummed that neither Mac nor Tik showed enough to earn a job. Moreover, it's Maloney who makes these decisions, not Tippett. Regardless of Tippett's philosophy, if Maloney thought these guys were good enough to contribute, they'd still be in Arizona today.

Assuming they both clear, this doesn't necessarily mean they'll be in Portland all year, either. Injuries happen, and I imagine they'll be among the first call-ups. Furthermore, if Kyle ****ing Chipchura isn't playing well, I don't think Maloney will bat an eyelash before sending him down.

As for losses and additions, let's ignore the goalie situation for now. It's just not something we want to talk about.

The fair way to do this is to compare this year's roster to the one that started last year.

On defense, Lepisto and Jovanovski are gone, Klesla and Rozsival are in, and OEL should be improved. Jovo had what might have been the worst year of his career, and Lepisto wasn't in Tippett's good graces. Aucoin and Morris are a year older, but that should be offset by continued development from OEL, Schlemko and Yandle. This should be a strength, and better defensively than it was last year.

At forward, Upshall, Fiddler, Turris, Belanger and Stempniak are gone, an average of 13 goals apiece, though Turris could still come back and score at least that much.

Boedker will likely improve on the four goals he scored last year, and 20 isn't out of the question. Torres should be a lock for at least 13, and he could hit 20, too, if he sees enough minutes. Langkow should be good for 15 goals himself, assuming he's healthy (and if not, guess who sees emergency call-up?). I'm expecting O'Sullivan to find himself in Tippett's doghouse almost immediately, but if not, he should be good for 15-20 goals as well. So I'm not really seeing some catastrophic drop in offense here.

I'm not pencilling Chipchura or Gordon in for any meaningful production, but both are at least as tight defensively as anybody who's gone, if not much more so. Langkow and Torres should make this team a tougher squad to play against, too.

I'm expecting, at most, a negligible drop in offense offset by much tighter team defense (and yes, I know puck possession goes a long way to that end, but all of these new guys are more than capable of cycling and grinding). The key powerplay pieces (Yandle, Doan, Whitney) are still here, and the penalty kill should be improved. As long as Mike Smith doesn't totally **** the bed (by no means a given), I don't see why this isn't a playoff team.

This isn't an especially rosy outlook. The Coyotes are not a cup contender, obviously. But I just don't see why there's so much doom and gloom. The sky is not falling. It's almost exactly where it was a year ago.
This is an excellent analysis, seriously. The one assumption that you make which I find faulty is that due to a better team defense we will be tougher to score goals against, and so be ok defensively. To ignore the goalie situation is to ignore the 500 lb gorilla in the room. One can't ignore this. The new starter will let in more than the old one, during regular season, at least. With this lack of talent compared to an improved western division, the margin for success will be awfully small indeed.

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10-01-2011, 07:21 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
This is an excellent analysis, seriously. The one assumption that you make which I find faulty is that due to a better team defense we will be tougher to score goals against, and so be ok defensively. To ignore the goalie situation is to ignore the 500 lb gorilla in the room. One can't ignore this. The new starter will let in more than the old one, during regular season, at least. With this lack of talent compared to an improved western division, the margin for success will be awfully small indeed.
To be honest I am GLAD the Russian is gone, it removes the worry of 82 games of hard work going out the window because that uninspired idiot is not really "into it"..

Pretty good most of the time, useless when it mattered..

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10-01-2011, 10:57 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
This is an excellent analysis, seriously. The one assumption that you make which I find faulty is that due to a better team defense we will be tougher to score goals against, and so be ok defensively. To ignore the goalie situation is to ignore the 500 lb gorilla in the room. One can't ignore this. The new starter will let in more than the old one, during regular season, at least. With this lack of talent compared to an improved western division, the margin for success will be awfully small indeed.
I just don't think it's a given that Smith allows more goals than Bryzgalov did. If Smith is X% worse, the defense just has to be Y% better to offset it. Not guaranteed either way.

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To be honest I am GLAD the Russian is gone, it removes the worry of 82 games of hard work going out the window because that uninspired idiot is not really "into it"..

Pretty good most of the time, useless when it mattered..
That you keep referring to Bryzgalov as "the Russian," "the lazy Russian," etc. is bordering on outright racism. Knock it off.

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10-01-2011, 11:10 PM
  #207
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That you keep referring to Bryzgalov as "the Russian," "the lazy Russian," etc. is bordering on outright racism. Knock it off.
I don't know if it's racism but he definitely hates the guy. He sucked in the playoffs, as did most of our guys but if you don't think he is the main reason we got into the playoffs the last 2 years, I don't know what team you were watching. It certainly wasn't the 4th line guys playing on our top 6. And other than Yandle, nobody on our D had great seasons.

But now he plays for another team so I don't care enough about him to be pissed at him anymore.

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10-01-2011, 11:29 PM
  #208
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bordering on outright racism. Knock it off.
Russian is not a race it is an ethnicity.

Maybe he's guilty of ethnocentrism?

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10-01-2011, 11:32 PM
  #209
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I just don't think it's a given that Smith allows more goals than Bryzgalov did. If Smith is X% worse, the defense just has to be Y% better to offset it. Not guaranteed either way.
I believe there is a point where defense cannot compensate a goalie to that level. I'm not sure if Mike Smith is it but I guess we'll fine out.

I think you can make a very good goalie like Osgood look great, but I don't think you can make a bad goalie look like an average one over a full season.

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10-02-2011, 12:00 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I just don't think it's a given that Smith allows more goals than Bryzgalov did. If Smith is X% worse, the defense just has to be Y% better to offset it. Not guaranteed either way.



That you keep referring to Bryzgalov as "the Russian," "the lazy Russian," etc. is bordering on outright racism. Knock it off.
I suspect Bryz would find no more offense to me calling him "Russian" than I am to being called an "American", but you are in charge, so I shall relent..

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10-02-2011, 12:12 AM
  #211
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A couple of questions,

Is it safe to assume that Tik is a dud?

How far is Miele from being NHL ready, and does he have the potential to become a first line center?

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10-02-2011, 01:01 AM
  #212
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Is it safe to assume that Tik is a dud?
No

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How far is Miele from being NHL ready, and does he have the potential to become a first line center?
His time in Portland this season will be the indicator where he's at.

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10-02-2011, 11:54 AM
  #213
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If tikhonov is in the Khl does that severely reduce his chances of being a call up when an injury replacement is needed?

Did noke make the team?

Did somebody compare pos to upshall? Really?

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10-02-2011, 12:06 PM
  #214
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If tikhonov is in the Khl does that severely reduce his chances of being a call up when an injury replacement is needed?

Did noke make the team?

Did somebody compare pos to upshall? Really?
If Tikhonov goes to the KHL, he'll spend the year there.

Nokelainen hasn't been cut yet, and has a one way deal. A one way real, by the way is representative of compensation NOT waiver status. This means if they assign him to Portland, he will have to clear waivers and the Coyotes will have to pay him 550k to play in the AHL. Both Chipchura and O'Sullivan, however, has two way contracts. This means that if assigned, both will also have to clear waivers but the Coyotes would only have to pay them 105k a piece to play in the minors. On this team, 400k is a real consideration.(I didn't post all of that because I assumed YOU didn't know, it just seems that there has been A LOT of confusion around here about what a two way contract is.

O'Sullivan to Upshall? Nah. I've said it before, he's Lee Stempniak without the hustle. He's Wojtek Wolski with less talent. Or at least somewhere in between those two things. Either way, not an effective nhl player. One dimmensional, soft, and streaky. Very good offensive skills, though. At least for short, intermittent periods of time.

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10-02-2011, 08:43 PM
  #215
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Did somebody compare pos to upshall? Really?
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O'Sullivan to Upshall? Nah. I've said it before, he's Lee Stempniak without the hustle. He's Wojtek Wolski with less talent. Or at least somewhere in between those two things. Either way, not an effective nhl player. One dimmensional, soft, and streaky. Very good offensive skills, though. At least for short, intermittent periods of time.
I did and I wouldn't at all be surprised if at the end of the season they have similar stats. POS is more likely to get sent down but Upshall just as likely to get hurt. I like Upshall far more as a fan (though I give POS a clean slate, maybe he can do something) but I think at the end of the day the difference between the players is fairly negligible, at least within the realm of this situation. Replace POS with Upshall and it doesn't suddenly make the team noticeably better.

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10-03-2011, 06:12 PM
  #216
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It appears that MacLean is already in Portland - although not officially waived yet. So the question is, who is going to be on the opening night roster? Anyone know what the Yotes are going to do?

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10-03-2011, 06:23 PM
  #217
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1. Whitney
2. Langkow
3. Doan
4. Pyatt
5. Hanzal
6. Vrbata
7. Boedker
8. Korpikoski
9. O'sullivan
10. Torres
11. Gordon
12. Nokelainen
---
13. Bissonnette
14. Chipchura


1. Yandle
2. Morris
3. Klesla
4. Roszival
5. Aucoin
6. OEL
--
7. Schlemko

1. Smith
2. LaBarbera


23 man roster...and Maloney said it would either be 23 or 22. If another cut has to be made, one would expect it would be one of Nokelainen or Chipchura because they have similar roles. If Turris signs, that may be the end of POS, because they are similar. At least that's what I would guess.

Anyway, I'd stick with 23. We have been ridiculously lucky with injuries so far. That won't last. Might as well not choose between POS, Chipchura, and Nokie. Keep all three and use them when injuries strike.

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10-03-2011, 06:39 PM
  #218
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so, you don't think Oystrick is going to make it?

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10-03-2011, 07:09 PM
  #219
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so, you don't think Oystrick is going to make it?
No, no I sure don't.

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10-03-2011, 07:09 PM
  #220
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so, you don't think Oystrick is going to make it?
Nope....OEL and Schlemko will be the 6 and 7 Dmen to start the season. Him and Summers will battle it out in Portland to be the "call up guy" when injuries occur.

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10-03-2011, 07:09 PM
  #221
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Also has Biz recovered from his injury he sustained in the last preseason game?

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10-03-2011, 07:14 PM
  #222
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Also has Biz recovered from his injury he sustained in the last preseason game?
He was at practice in Prescott this morning and didn't appear to have any issues.

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10-03-2011, 07:16 PM
  #223
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He was at practice in Prescott this morning and didn't appear to have any issues.
Thanks...is it bad that i actually want him to be injured so he doesnt waste ice time for someone semi-decent?

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10-03-2011, 07:16 PM
  #224
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Also has Biz recovered from his injury he sustained in the last preseason game?
He returned to action later in the same game.

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10-03-2011, 08:11 PM
  #225
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Thanks...is it bad that i actually want him to be injured so he doesnt waste ice time for someone semi-decent?
I don't know if it's possible but I'd like to see some sort of rule that bans staged fighting. If there's a cheap hit or something like that and a fight breaks out that's one thing. Having designated fighters that fight each other just doesn't make sense when they are trying to clean up concussions. I'm torn because a fight can definitely juice up a boring game or fire up a team that's flat. Then of course there's the players policing themselves. But I don't like the fact that it takes up a spot of someone who might have a lot more to contribute.

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