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Roberto Luongo back to take care of ‘unfinished business’

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Old
09-16-2011, 12:28 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
A hundred percent agreed on the bolded.

I can't narrow it down. Luongo is a polarizing figure for sure, but he hasn't done anything in his career in Vancouver to make us think he doesn't enjoy playing here, love the city, love the team, love the fans, and yet we continuously throw him to the dogs after each playoff failure.

We've had lots of teams here that didn't win a cup. We had the 82' team with Steamer. We had the '94 team with Linden, Bure, Mclean, and other players revered as local hero's in Vancouver. The only thing that separates them is that the Canucks set records, and stayed on top on their course to/in the playoffs, whereas the other teams were underdogs at some point. But I'm very confused why we're almost punishing our players for their accomplishments.

Anyways, long rant over. Everyone with a clear set of eyes can see the double standard laid out for this guy here. I mean, hearing of buyouts, and Corey Schneider starting this season may make you want to rip your hair out, but I just hope Luongo has enough faith in this city to stick it out the next little while.
Great post. Keep it up.

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09-16-2011, 12:43 PM
  #152
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I have a feeling that will change this year. Not that he'll do better - but because I expect Fandom to find itself a new whipping boy this season
It's been that way for as long as I can remember. The first time I really remember being a real fan was in 91-92 and even then it was different goalies, same story.

It's just the nature of the position. People thought when he won the gold medal that it would give him some credibility, but the reality is that even cup winning goalies get thrown under the bus and they get a lot more credit than Olympians. Even if we won the Cup, it wouldn't last long. Sooner or later, it would come back to him being the whipping boy.

It's just an inescapable reality that most times the goalies will get the blame for bad goals and bad games. Only level-headed fans who aren't prone to fits of rage and bouts of depression will look at the outcome and say that we win as a team, lose as a team and sometimes you try your best and things just don't work out.

We, unfortunately, do not have an abundance of those kinds of fans.

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09-16-2011, 01:35 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Again, I reiterate to the people saying they want Luongo to genuflect at the altar of the media and beg our forgiveness: whenever he gets down on himself like this he is considered a mentally weak fraud by the Vancouver fans and media.

Personally, I think Luongo is at his best when he thinks he's the best, acts like he's the best, and blames his defense for every puck that enters the net. Same way Roy and Brodeur were/are most of the time.
I 100% agree with the first bolded part.

I don't agree with the 2nd bolded part. I like when Luongo is confident & a little arrogant because you have to be to be a good goalie. You have to believe that YOU ARE THE BEST (admitting it was his fault won't help the mentality). However I don't like the part about blaming his defenseman. I personally like how when he has been talking about the team he uses "we". He isn't placing blame on just himself or certain players but the group as a whole, which I think is the best approach. Hockey is a TEAM game.

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09-16-2011, 02:37 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Remember though - I stated Luongo's 4 out of his last 6 playoff series. Which, in terms of games played, is identical to Cloutier's career average. They are similar sample sizes, with similar save percentage numbers. As "insane" or "childish" or "silly" as it is to compare 40 games with identical save percentages, the numbers speak for themselves.

Kudos though for actually responding on a mature level. The reason many posters are acting immature about this comparison is that deep down inside - they recognize it's valid. And, like myself, have some serious concerns regarding the fact this particular player is signed fr another decade.
First off, you have him playing Chicago in 3 of his last 6 series, which is impossible as he's played 6 series in the last 2 years. So even your biased numbers are incorrect.

Secondly, cherry picking stats to denigrate an elite player and compare him to mediocre one is ridiculous. Like I said earlier, your same argument can be used to equate H. Sedin to Trent Klatt.


Here's a stat to use as a comparison. Here's the number of games in which each goalie posted a .930+ sv% (keeping in mind Cloutier played in an era where it was easier to post such numbers):


Luongo: 28 times in 59 games (47.4% of the time)

Cloutier: 3 times in 25 games (12% of the time)


Cloutier wasn't inconsistent; he was consistently bad. He could never be depended on the play well in the playoffs and not once in his career was he a key part in the Canucks winning a series. Comparing him to the guy who just helped take the lowest scoring cup finalists in the history of the NHL to game 7 of the SCF is asinine. Luongo has his warts to be sure, but such a dishonest and biased comparison is so silly that even some of Luongo's harshest critics on here have rightfully pointed out the absurdity of it.

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09-16-2011, 02:50 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
First off, you have him playing Chicago in 3 of his last 6 series, which is impossible as he's played 6 series in the last 2 years. So even your biased numbers are incorrect.

Secondly, cherry picking stats to denigrate an elite player and compare him to mediocre one is ridiculous. Like I said earlier, your same argument can be used to equate H. Sedin to Trent Klatt.


Here's a stat to use as a comparison. Here's the number of games in which each goalie posted a .930+ sv% (keeping in mind Cloutier played in an era where it was easier to post such numbers):


Luongo: 28 times in 59 games (47.4% of the time)

Cloutier: 3 times in 25 games (12% of the time)


Cloutier wasn't inconsistent; he was consistently bad. He could never be depended on the play well in the playoffs and not once in his career was he a key part in the Canucks winning a series. Comparing him to the guy who just helped take the lowest scoring cup finalists in the history of the NHL to game 7 of the SCF is asinine. Luongo has his warts to be sure, but such a dishonest and biased comparison is so silly that even some of Luongo's harshest critics on here have rightfully pointed out the absurdity of it.
Fine, I made a simple mistake that changes nothing. Sigh. Let's look at 4 out of his last 7 series in that case - was that so difficult?

Looking at his last 43 playoff games in the playoffs is not cherrypicking, that is a massive sample size. Looking at his SV% over that time period is informative, and comparable to Cloutier's 40 or so odd games as a playoff performer in a Canucks uniform.

Sorry if that makes some squeamish or uncomfortable, but those are the numbers.

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Old
09-16-2011, 03:13 PM
  #156
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ArtemChubarov Artem Chubarov
@BotchonCanucks Canucks fans are most worried about their Vezina nominee starting goaltender? Now THATS spoiled.


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09-16-2011, 03:16 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Fine, I made a simple mistake that changes nothing. Sigh. Let's look at 4 out of his last 7 series in that case - was that so difficult?

Looking at his last 43 playoff games in the playoffs is not cherrypicking, that is a massive sample size. Looking at his SV% over that time period is informative, and comparable to Cloutier's 40 or so odd games as a playoff performer in a Canucks uniform.

Sorry if that makes some squeamish or uncomfortable, but those are the numbers.
What are you talking about? That's exactly what cherry picking is.

So when talking about Brodeur do you mention that since the juggernaut defensive team that was the Devils broke up, he's been pretty mediocre in the playoffs? How about Ryan Miller? Lundqvist? Pekka Rinne? All of these goalies have similar playoff numbers to Luongo.

The flak this guy gets is unbelievable. I was a Cloutier apologist to be sure, but this comparison is pretty trollish.

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09-16-2011, 03:32 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Fine, I made a simple mistake that changes nothing. Sigh. Let's look at 4 out of his last 7 series in that case - was that so difficult?

Looking at his last 43 playoff games in the playoffs is not cherrypicking, that is a massive sample size. Looking at his SV% over that time period is informative, and comparable to Cloutier's 40 or so odd games as a playoff performer in a Canucks uniform.

Sorry if that makes some squeamish or uncomfortable, but those are the numbers.
Cloutier played 25 playoff games, so again you're pulling info out of nowhere.

Secondly, you're not looking at Luongo's past 43 playoff games, you're looking at his worst series from those games. One could just easily say Luongo has a 935+ sv% if you look only ay 6 of his last 10 series, but such a statement is basically useless.

Kesler only has 16 points in 39 games if you look at 6 of his last 8 series. Henrik Sedin has only 13 points and was a -23 in 32 games if you look at 5 of his last 10 playoff series. I guess we might as well dredge up awful players from Canucks history to compare them to as well.

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09-16-2011, 04:19 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
What are you talking about? That's exactly what cherry picking is.

So when talking about Brodeur do you mention that since the juggernaut defensive team that was the Devils broke up, he's been pretty mediocre in the playoffs? How about Ryan Miller? Lundqvist? Pekka Rinne? All of these goalies have similar playoff numbers to Luongo.

The flak this guy gets is unbelievable. I was a Cloutier apologist to be sure, but this comparison is pretty trollish.
Sure.


Last edited by Diamonddog01: 09-16-2011 at 04:25 PM.
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09-16-2011, 04:45 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Cloutier played 25 playoff games, so again you're pulling info out of nowhere.

Secondly, you're not looking at Luongo's past 43 playoff games, you're looking at his worst series from those games. One could just easily say Luongo has a 935+ sv% if you look only ay 6 of his last 10 series, but such a statement is basically useless.

Kesler only has 16 points in 39 games if you look at 6 of his last 8 series. Henrik Sedin has only 13 points and was a -23 in 32 games if you look at 5 of his last 10 playoff series. I guess we might as well dredge up awful players from Canucks history to compare them to as well.
I'm not pulling info out of nowhere, I'm was simply (and mistakenly) estimating instead of looking the numbers up. I admit my series numbers were off, my apologies - I have since looked them up and corrected them. I am looking at his worst series - sure, but I'm not looking at a single series; I'm looking at 5 out of 8, or the majority of series he's played over the past few years. Let's look at the numbers as a whole

In 4 years, and 25 playoff games, Dan Cloutier had a save percentage of 0.8755.

In 3 years, and 47 playoff games, Roberto Luongo has had a save percentage of 0.907.

If we look at 5 out of the past 8 series over the past 3 years, or 32 out of Luongo's last 47 playoff games (68% of his playoff games) his save percentage is 0.879. Very comparable to Cloutier's over the 25 game span. Is it cherrypicking? Sure, I'll admit that. But it's cherrypicking over 68% of games played, so I feel the comparison is not without merit. Others obviously feel quite differently, and that's fine.

In addition one of the series was St. Louis, in which he played well. It was the following series, his first against Chicago, in which the playoff issues appeared for the first time. So the two series against Nashville and San Jose have been the exception since that 1st Chicago series 3 years ago, not the rule.

I'm not stating that Cloutier and Luongo are exaclty the same, but Luongo's play has not just been wildly inconsistent it's also been quite bad. In 06/07 he was obviously great.


Last edited by Diamonddog01: 09-16-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old
09-16-2011, 04:59 PM
  #161
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It's so much easier to ignore someone than get sucked into to such wrong opinions. That guy was full of ****.

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Old
09-16-2011, 05:00 PM
  #162
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There's no getting around it. Luongo has put up some absolutely horrific playoff performances. Truly mind bogglingly bad.

This does not mean he is solely responsible for team performance.

But it does mean he has sucked, a lot, in the playoffs.

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09-16-2011, 05:29 PM
  #163
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Luongo has played no better or worse overall than the rest of the teams in front of him.

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09-16-2011, 05:51 PM
  #164
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Luongo has played no better or worse overall than the rest of the teams in front of him.
I would argue that at times, he has played better in front of lesser teams and worse in front of better teams.

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09-16-2011, 05:57 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
I would argue that at times, he has played better in front of lesser teams and worse in front of better teams.
And that has a lot to do with the style of play that is being played in front of him.

Weaker teams usually rely on defense to win games while the better teams play an offensive game which leads to more open ended chances.

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09-16-2011, 06:28 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I'm not pulling info out of nowhere, I'm was simply (and mistakenly) estimating instead of looking the numbers up. I admit my series numbers were off, my apologies - I have since looked them up and corrected them. I am looking at his worst series - sure, but I'm not looking at a single series; I'm looking at 5 out of 8, or the majority of series he's played over the past few years. Let's look at the numbers as a whole

In 4 years, and 25 playoff games, Dan Cloutier had a save percentage of 0.8755.

In 3 years, and 47 playoff games, Roberto Luongo has had a save percentage of 0.907.

If we look at 5 out of the past 8 series over the past 3 years, or 32 out of Luongo's last 47 playoff games (68% of his playoff games) his save percentage is 0.879. Very comparable to Cloutier's over the 25 game span. Is it cherrypicking? Sure, I'll admit that. But it's cherrypicking over 68% of games played, so I feel the comparison is not without merit. Others obviously feel quite differently, and that's fine.
Again, you're either really sloppy with numbers or you're being willfully ignorant to try and strengthen your point. In those 5 series (which are 30 games, not 32 by the way), Luongo stopped 751 of 834 shots which is a sv% of .900, not .879. Is that great? No, certainly not. But when you're cherry picking series, it's actually not all that bad, especially when your means of comparison is a guy who never cracked a .870 sv% in a full playoff.

Luongo has had his issues, no one denies that. But at least try and make an honest and well thought out argument, rather than a lazy comparison to an awful goalie using fudged numbers that serves more to shock than to actually provide a cogent argument.

Cloutier was consistently awful and never strung together more than a game or two of quality play in the postseason. There isn't a single series in his career where you could argue he was one of the Canucks top 3 players. Luongo is basically the antithesis of that. He's either been fantastic or has struggled, with not a lot of in between in the playoffs. Cloutier couldn't have taken a team that scored as little as the Canucks did to even a 7th game in a series, let alone to the 7th game of the Stanley cup finals. He simply lacked the ability to play at a good enough level. Cloutier was an awful goalie who was passable in the regular season and a disaster in the playoffs. Luongo is an elite goalie who has struggled with consistency at times. The comparison makes no sense regardless of what numbers you invent to support your argument.

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09-16-2011, 06:48 PM
  #167
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Again, you're either really sloppy with numbers or you're being willfully ignorant to try and strengthen your point. In those 5 series (which are 30 games, not 32 by the way), Luongo stopped 751 of 834 shots which is a sv% of .900, not .879. Is that great? No, certainly not. But when you're cherry picking series, it's actually not all that bad, especially when your means of comparison is a guy who never cracked a .870 sv% in a full playoff.

Luongo has had his issues, no one denies that. But at least try and make an honest and well thought out argument, rather than a lazy comparison to an awful goalie using fudged numbers that serves more to shock than to actually provide a cogent argument.

Cloutier was consistently awful and never strung together more than a game or two of quality play in the postseason. There isn't a single series in his career where you could argue he was one of the Canucks top 3 players. Luongo is basically the antithesis of that. He's either been fantastic or has struggled, with not a lot of in between in the playoffs. Cloutier couldn't have taken a team that scored as little as the Canucks did to even a 7th game in a series, let alone to the 7th game of the Stanley cup finals. He simply lacked the ability to play at a good enough level. Cloutier was an awful goalie who was passable in the regular season and a disaster in the playoffs. Luongo is an elite goalie who has struggled with consistency at times. The comparison makes no sense regardless of what numbers you invent to support your argument.
In those 5 series - Chicago 6 games, Los Angeles 6 games, Chicago 6 games, Chicago 7 games and Boston 7 games. 6+6+6+7+7=32 by my math. Granted he didn't start Game 6 against Chicago but he still played.

Actually both our numbers are a bit off, so you may want to start taking your own advice regarding laziness, inventing numbers, being honest and having a well thought out argument. According to NHL.com (I was using a shortcut, but wasn't far off) Luongo saved 797 shots on 893, for a save percentage of 0.892.

I'm sorry, but 0.8755 and 0.892 are similar enough to legitimately compare. And this isn't for shock value, it's to objectively look at the numbers between the two goalies over a big enough sample size. People are so resistant to even discussing this, despite the fact that over the two periods their save percentages only differ by 0.016%.

Both goalies have been good (Cloutier) to great/spectacular (Luongo) in the regular season and have been trainwrecks in the playoffs. They are not identical players with identical career trajectories, I'm not disagreeing with you there.


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09-16-2011, 06:54 PM
  #168
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You know, me and a buddy of mine were talking about Luongo and were shocked to find he's never won a vezina that we can think of at least. For such a consistently good goaltender in the regular season, that's kinda surprising IMO.

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09-16-2011, 07:22 PM
  #169
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In those 5 series - Chicago 6 games, Los Angeles 6 games, Chicago 6 games, Chicago 7 games and Boston 7 games. 6+6+6+7+7=32 by my math. Granted he didn't start Game 6 against Chicago but he still played.
You said one of the series you were including was St. Louis:

Quote:
In addition one of the series was St. Louis, in which he played well.
so I naturally assumed you were including that one in your numbers.


Quote:
Actually both our numbers are a bit off, so you may want to start taking your own advice regarding laziness, inventing numbers, being honest and having a well thought out argument. According to NHL.com (I was using a shortcut, but wasn't far off) Luongo saved 797 shots on 893, for a save percentage of 0.892.
My numbers were based on the premise that St. Louis was included in your total. I'm not sure why you'd extend the window back to 47 games if you weren't going to include the first games in that sample.


Quote:
I'm sorry, but 0.8755 and 0.892 are similar enough to legitimately compare. And this isn't for shock value, it's to objectively look at the numbers between the two goalies over a big enough sample size. People are so resistant to even discussing this, despite the fact that over the two periods their save percentages only differ by 0.016%.

Cloutier's career playoff sv% is .872. And no matter how small that number looks, that's 15 more GA over a typical 4 round playoff run for Cloutier compared to Luongo. That's a big difference. If Cloutier was the Canucks' goalie the Canucks wouldn't have gotten past Chicago. And that's really what it boils down to. Since you love to cherry pick and exclude stats to suit your point, how about Luongo's .948 sv% in the 5 games in the 1st round outside of the 2 he played behind a flu riddled team? Why don't you find me some 5 game samples from a series where Cloutier put up those kinds of numbers?

Or how about his numbers before pretty much his entire defense got injured? How many times did Cloutier make it to game 3 of the Stanley Cup Finals with a .928 sv%? I'm only excluding 20% of his games, much smaller than the amount you'll throw out to make your point. Is that illustrative of his play this playoffs? If not, why not? I'm counting 80% of his games and not cherry picking out of the middle of the timeline like you are.

And as to the bolded, you're not looking at sv% over a period. You're excluding Luongo's 3 best series in that span (roughly 40% of his play). Like I said earlier, if you want to exclude 40% of his series you could also mention that he has a .935+ sv% in 6 of his 10 series and argue he's the greatest playoff goaltender of all time, but that's about as meaningless as what you're saying. The samples are the same relative size between both arguments and both are basically irrellevant.

There's a lot to be critical about Luongo's playoff performances, but you're just bogging everything down with pointless stats.

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09-16-2011, 08:33 PM
  #170
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I think he'd like something like this:
Quote:
"We choked," said Canucks goaltender Roberto Luongo regarding the Stanley Cup Final loss to the Boston Bruins. "But we're going to change that. We're going to play a lot better in the playoffs this year. I can promise you that."

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09-16-2011, 08:41 PM
  #171
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You know, me and a buddy of mine were talking about Luongo and were shocked to find he's never won a vezina that we can think of at least. For such a consistently good goaltender in the regular season, that's kinda surprising IMO.
It's just due to his contemporaries, people forget that Brodeur didn't win his first Vezina until 2003, his 10th year as a starter. Last year was Luongo's 10th year as a starter.

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09-16-2011, 08:48 PM
  #172
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Sometimes I think people forget just how HORRIBLE Luongo was against the Hawks. Do you not remember him being pulled and sitting on the bench looking like a sad child? half the city wanted Schneider to start.

Then the meltdowns in every game in Boston. Some of the worst goaltending I've ever seen on that stage. I mean it could not be worse, it's not possible, he was that bad.

I don't trust the guy and don't know how anyone can. There's a better chance he'll fall apart in a big game than steal it.

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09-16-2011, 09:49 PM
  #173
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The word 'team' is really something a lot of Canuck fans need to grasp.

In reality, what exactly do we have to complain about? It was our best season in history..let's be thankful. On top of that, we're still a top contender who now have the experience of what it takes to get it done. Aside to Chicago and Detroit, what other team can say they have that type of playoff experience?

I think the Sedins and Luongo learned a very valuable lesson these playoffs. While they weren't fantastic, they certainly weren't as god awful as some people suggest. They DO have to be better and they all know it..so why so harsh guys?

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09-16-2011, 09:51 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
There's a lot to be critical about Luongo's playoff performances, but you're just bogging everything down with pointless stats.
Just out of curiosity, what are these things? Seems like you get so bogged down with defending Luongo against people you think are haters that you don't actually get to critique him yourself.

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09-16-2011, 09:51 PM
  #175
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Sometimes I think people forget just how HORRIBLE Luongo was against the Hawks. Do you not remember him being pulled and sitting on the bench looking like a sad child? half the city wanted Schneider to start.

Then the meltdowns in every game in Boston. Some of the worst goaltending I've ever seen on that stage. I mean it could not be worse, it's not possible, he was that bad.

I don't trust the guy and don't know how anyone can. There's a better chance he'll fall apart in a big game than steal it.
I think that's a common mistake people make. Luongo is about 50/50 on big games . I don't think it's fair to say there's a 'better chance' he'll fail.

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