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Does trotz's D first hurt our O?

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Old
09-21-2011, 12:31 PM
  #1
maplepred
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Does trotz's D first hurt our O?

I like how trotz wants everyone to be good defensively, and that wins us a lot of games. But as we all know we are suffering heavily offensively.
With guys like weber, suter, legwand, smithson, spaling, Blum, and obviously rinne, Do you think we really need to make guys like beck, wilson, hornqvist, watson, smith, etc be on fourth or third line trying to get better defensively when they could be on top lines putting up offense? Like they have all through the juniors?!?

I mean, obviously in practice, get them playing and learning defense more and more over time, and that will convert into games. But do you not think trotz should let them these guys go all out offensively!? That's how they got drafted and we are starving for offense anyways.

I think guys in the past like legwand, erat, arkhipov, hartnell, etc could have all been major offensive contributors but were pushed in defensive games and just adapted so they got ice time. I mean do we really need every single player to be defense first? Than offense?

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09-21-2011, 12:44 PM
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WartracePred
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Craziest post I've ever read. Trotz stiffing offensive creativity?? Nonsense.

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09-21-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
Craziest post I've ever read. Trotz stiffing offensive creativity?? Nonsense.
Because, y'know, guys like Radulov and Kariya and Forsberg and Dumont (when he first came here) and Arnott (ditto) were so seriously held back during their time in Nashville. Just shameful.

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09-21-2011, 01:01 PM
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... did I fall through a wormhole and end up in 2006?

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09-21-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
... did I fall through a wormhole and end up in 2006?
Arnott's going to be crazy awesome for you guys, but I like our chances. We've got Modin and Anson Carter in the lineup now, and Nash and Klesla and Brule will be back from all those crazy injuries, and Zherdev's sure to sign eventually. We're making the playoffs for sure this year.

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09-21-2011, 02:18 PM
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dulzhok
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Part of Trotz defensive schemes are because we simple don't have the offensive skill to run and gun with most teams. It's how he keeps us competitive year after year with bottom 5 offensive skill.

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09-21-2011, 02:23 PM
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BigFatCat999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Part of Trotz defensive schemes are because we simple don't have the offensive skill to run and gun with most teams. It's how he keeps us competitive year after year with bottom 5 offensive skill.
*blink*

I agree with Dulz.....

Excuse me, I have to call off from work and jagerbomb myself into oblivion.

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09-21-2011, 02:25 PM
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101st_fan
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No..

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Old
09-21-2011, 02:43 PM
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PredsV82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Part of Trotz defensive schemes are because we simple don't have the offensive skill to run and gun with most teams. It's how he keeps us competitive year after year with bottom 5 offensive skill.
this.

with the way this team has been built, we win games 2-1 and 3-2.

If Trotz turned everyone loose to cherry-pick and go wide open, we'd be losing 6-4, 7-5.

Ill take winning low scoring games to losing high scoring ones.


(and as others have pointed out, when we had offensively gifted players, we scored like gangbusters, so its not the system as much as it is the players)

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09-21-2011, 03:05 PM
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Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
*blink*

I agree with Dulz.....

Excuse me, I have to call off from work and jagerbomb myself into oblivion.
It's okay. These things happen to everybody from time to time.

Silly prodding at friends aside, I'd have to agree as well. One might be able to make the point that Milwaukee might not be doing as well with offensive prospects (note that nearly all the offensively gifted players here that "count" for naysayers have come from trades and signings), but frankly I'm not convinced there's been enough quality scorer prospects to verify whether or not that's the case.


(Also, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one here who thinks Erat is paid fairly. )

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09-21-2011, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It's okay. These things happen to everybody from time to time.

Silly prodding at friends aside, I'd have to agree as well. One might be able to make the point that Milwaukee might not be doing as well with offensive prospects (note that nearly all the offensively gifted players here that "count" for naysayers have come from trades and signings), but frankly I'm not convinced there's been enough quality scorer prospects to verify whether or not that's the case.


(Also, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one here who thinks Erat is paid fairly. )
Erats 4.5 mil cap hit/average salary is fair market value. what people balked at was due to the salary structure he was making 6 mil actual cash last year

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09-21-2011, 04:51 PM
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WartracePred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Because, y'know, guys like Radulov and Kariya and Forsberg and Dumont (when he first came here) and Arnott (ditto) were so seriously held back during their time in Nashville. Just shameful.
I'll give you Kariya and Forsberg. But Rads is in Russia for a reason-and it ain't all about the rubles. Dumont was a healthy scratch most of the season because he wasn't playing defense to Trotz's standard. Arny can still score, but he was lazy on the back check. So he's gone. If you don't play responsibly, doesn't matter what scoring flair you have.

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09-21-2011, 05:07 PM
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Requiring the skaters who get the most ice time to know how to play in all three zones isn't a defensive system. It's smart hockey. Some coaches are ok with their stronger offensive players cherrypicking, but some coaches have teams which rely on their offense more than their defense and goaltending. I don't think Trotz necessarily forbids it, but if you are going to cherrypick on a Trotz team you had damn well better make sure it's the perfect time to do so. Trotz would rather use his forwards aggressively to create turnovers which create odd-man rushes.

What really stifles the offense isn't Trotz's "system", but it's the lack of threat on the PP. Whether that is coaching, talent, or both will continue to be debated until the PP improves or the world ends, whichever comes first, but I hardly think a "D-first" mentality is really the problem with the man (dis)advantage. Wouldn't hurt to have a pure finisher on some more of those odd-man rushes we see so often.


Last edited by TMI: 09-21-2011 at 05:13 PM.
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Old
09-21-2011, 07:48 PM
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triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
I'll give you Kariya and Forsberg. But Rads is in Russia for a reason-and it ain't all about the rubles. Dumont was a healthy scratch most of the season because he wasn't playing defense to Trotz's standard. Arny can still score, but he was lazy on the back check. So he's gone. If you don't play responsibly, doesn't matter what scoring flair you have.
??? Rads is in Russia because of money period, no other reason.

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09-21-2011, 08:19 PM
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token grinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Erats 4.5 mil cap hit/average salary is fair market value. what people balked at was due to the salary structure he was making 6 mil actual cash last year
do these same people balk that he will be underpaid at parts of his contract?

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09-21-2011, 10:15 PM
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do these same people balk that he will be underpaid at parts of his contract?
That doesn't help us for 2011-12. Bottom line is his salary hurts us right now...

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Old
09-21-2011, 10:17 PM
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maplepred
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Sorry guys, ya don't know if ya don't ask! Which is why the title of the thread had a question mark.
Thanks for clearing up though, Some comments a little unnecessary but I guess it comes with the territory haha,

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09-22-2011, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
I'll give you Kariya and Forsberg. But Rads is in Russia for a reason-and it ain't all about the rubles. Dumont was a healthy scratch most of the season because he wasn't playing defense to Trotz's standard. Arny can still score, but he was lazy on the back check. So he's gone. If you don't play responsibly, doesn't matter what scoring flair you have.
It was also about his ego. Big fish in a little pond was more attractive to him than mid-sized fish in a big pond of talented players. Dumont was a healthy scratch for a multitude of reasons and when he stopped putting up the numbers his lack of willingness in the defensive end became an issue.

Trotz expects players to at least attempt to fill their responsibilities in all zones. Expecting people to do their jobs isn't asking too much.

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09-22-2011, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
It was also about his ego. Big fish in a little pond was more attractive to him than mid-sized fish in a big pond of talented players. Dumont was a healthy scratch for a multitude of reasons and when he stopped putting up the numbers his lack of willingness in the defensive end became an issue.

Trotz expects players to at least attempt to fill their responsibilities in all zones. Expecting people to do their jobs isn't asking too much.
I don't think it was just about ego. I mean, if I was living in Europe and then someone came along and said to me, "hey, why don't you come back home to Alabama and we'll pay you ten times what you make now for an easier job, and you'll be close to your family" I'd certainly have to consider the offer. Especially if I was ... what was he, 23? Yeah. I'm not saying he handled it well, because he didn't. But I can see where he's coming from.

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09-22-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Requiring the skaters who get the most ice time to know how to play in all three zones isn't a defensive system. It's smart hockey... Trotz would rather use his forwards aggressively to create turnovers which create odd-man rushes.

What really stifles the offense isn't Trotz's "system", but it's the lack of threat on the PP. Whether that is coaching, talent, or both will continue to be debated until the PP improves or the world ends, whichever comes first, but I hardly think a "D-first" mentality is really the problem with the man (dis)advantage. Wouldn't hurt to have a pure finisher on some more of those odd-man rushes we see so often.
Definitely agree with the bolded statement.
There was a thread on OTF this week where the PP was discussed, and someone stated well what I think: This team could have a 15th ranked PP so long as they maintain a top 5 PK. This puts special teams balance in their favor. The personnel / system already are good 5 on 5 as stats bear out.

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09-22-2011, 09:38 AM
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I don't think it was just about ego. I mean, if I was living in Europe and then someone came along and said to me, "hey, why don't you come back home to Alabama and we'll pay you ten times what you make now for an easier job, and you'll be close to your family" I'd certainly have to consider the offer. Especially if I was ... what was he, 23? Yeah. I'm not saying he handled it well, because he didn't. But I can see where he's coming from.
He came from a position of immaturity and ego driven, me first tendencies.

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Old
09-22-2011, 09:39 AM
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PredsV82
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Definitely agree with the bolded statement.
There was a thread on OTF this week where the PP was discussed, and someone stated well what I think: This team could have a 15th ranked PP so long as they maintain a top 5 PK. This puts special teams balance in their favor. The personnel / system already are good 5 on 5 as stats bear out.
if we can improve to being the 15th ranked PP we should contend for the division.

the way I see it our combined PP and PK rank needs to be less than 30 for us to be a solid playoff team. If its less than 20 we will be up there competing for a top seed.

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09-22-2011, 10:50 AM
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Might want to change the numbers. If the Preds want to move forward their Pk needs to be top 10 and the PP top 15.

All depends on the PP.


If Craig Smith can make the roster, (which he can this year) then the Preds have a unique situation. If Smith and Bergfors can create offense and the youth in defense can live up to their hype then Nashville will have an extremely strong team with about 6-7 million dollars in spending cash to make a trade for what they need.

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Old
09-22-2011, 12:08 PM
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Seth Lake
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Straight from a player's mouth:

Quote:
Bergfors says he thinks he can fit in with the Predator way of playing hockey, as a cohesive unit. “I think Nashville is a great spot, a great bunch of guys and a hard working team that stays to a system and works as a group. That will benefit me,” Bergfors said.
http://insidesmashville.com/2011/09/...new-kostitsyn/

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Old
09-22-2011, 12:22 PM
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Don't you think there's a script attached to something like that? It's like Heatley moving to Minnesota or Carter moving to Columbus, they have to say these things...

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