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09-16-2011, 12:54 PM
  #51
0ilerman
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None of those are world class facilities. World class facilities exist in world class cities. The British Musuem is a world class facility inside and out - Edmonton will never have a world class museum inside or out.
bah humbug

edmonton sucks, I hate my city too

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09-16-2011, 01:05 PM
  #52
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What about West Ed? It's still top ten in the world.

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09-16-2011, 01:34 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Well, by being old they have more opportunity to host big events.

Are there any new "world class" museums that people can name off the top of their head?
Guggenheim, Pompidou, Orsay (old building though), Acropolis would be a few.

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09-16-2011, 02:03 PM
  #54
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Well if you want to read my anecdote that literally then fine, it obviously wasn't entirely correct. But generally speaking world class stadiums, musuems, galleries, etc. are in world class cities. For one they have the financing to produce fabulous facilities like the Metropolitan or MoMA in New York, the Louvre or Musee d'Orsay in Paris, The British Musuem or National Gallery in London, etc. These cities draw millions of tourists and they can afford to have such incredible musuems and galleries.
reading your later posts I understand what you mean by World Class.
and I also know I'm nitk picking, but the Met in New York, in it's day wasn't widely regarded.
the one "nicknamed "The Yellow Brick Brewery" for its industrial looking exterior... "
and it was destroyed in 1967.
I don't recall the one now in Lincon Centre looking all that world class on the outside. see below. so if you consider that building world class, then there is hope for the museum. obviosuly what's on the outside doesn't always count.
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File Type: jpg LCMO.jpg‎ (110.2 KB, 8 views)

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09-16-2011, 07:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Well, by being old they have more opportunity to host big events.
Age plays a role but the fact that it is the most beautiful concert hall in Paris (one of the artistic centres of the world) is the main reason.

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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Are they world class because of their architecture, or because they are old and big events happen there?
The building itself and the exterior and interior decoration are covered in art history classes focusing on the 19th century. Just take a look at the photos, your question suggests you haven't even looked at the building! It speaks for itself. I have been to it and it is breathtaking. I absolutely love the winspear centre but it isn't among the finest concert halls in the world.

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bah humbug

edmonton sucks, I hate my city too
I'm the first person to support the growth of culture in Edmonton and I will always defend the quality of life in this city. But come on, we can't pass off our few cultural icons as world class. It is a delusion. And frankly I am absolutely cynical about the ability of this province to make the right decisions in the future. It just isn't out focus and it will never be. This doesn't mean we can't make strides, but this museum certainly has gotten off on the wrong foot.


Last edited by jbean: 09-16-2011 at 07:39 PM.
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09-16-2011, 08:22 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Guggenheim, Pompidou, Orsay (old building though), Acropolis would be a few.
Well, Guggenheim was built in 1959 and is apparently old enough to be considered a National Historic site.

The Pompidou, I think, is a good example of why a facility is world class, not because of it's architecture or how it looks.

And the only Acropolis I know features things like the Parthenon....


Quote:
The building itself and the exterior and interior decoration are covered in art history classes focusing on the 19th century. Just take a look at the photos, your question suggests you haven't even looked at the building! It speaks for itself. I have been to it and it is breathtaking. I absolutely love the winspear centre but it isn't among the finest concert halls in the world.
I haven't seen the building in person (which is probably required to fully appreciate any historic site).


The problem with "world class" definitions is that it's very subjective. Even with consensus, what does it mean to be "world class." Is the Palais Garnier "world class" because of it's looks. Does that mean that if I build something that looks super impressive, but doesn't actually host any shows, that it can still be a world class facility?

I'm of the mind that something is world class based upon what goes on inside, not how it looks. So in this sense I can agree with you that "world class facilities go in world class cities." But I think that it's reflexive. Facilities are considered world class because they're in world class cities.

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09-16-2011, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Well, Guggenheim was built in 1959 and is apparently old enough to be considered a National Historic site.

The Pompidou, I think, is a good example of why a facility is world class, not because of it's architecture or how it looks.

And the only Acropolis I know features things like the Parthenon...
1) Sorry - meant the Guggenheim in Bilbao - I just listed museums I've been to in the last year. That one was built in 1997.

2) Centre Pompidou - is the quintessential example of how important architecture can be to a museum. It's bold design made it one of the worlds most discussed museums for a long time.

3) The New Acropolis Museum in Athens. Might be my favorite museum ever. Amazing - check it out if you're ever in Athens.

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09-17-2011, 01:26 AM
  #58
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Hey everyone,

In this day in age, it's pretty easy to take this debate to city hall. Right from where you are sitting, even. Maybe if enough people send a message to the mayor about this lackluster design, they'll consider reversing the decision. And before you say it's not worth your time, consider you've read (and perhaps posted) through three pages of this topic on a hockey forum:

http://webproxy.edmonton.ca/forms/co...aspx?cid=mayor

Here's the message I just sent to Mayor Mandel:

Hi Mayor Mandel,

The citizens of Edmonton seem universally disappointed with the winning bid for the new downtown Alberta museum, saying its lackluster design reminds them of a high school, and nobody wants to remember high school!

I know many people had it all wrong when they turned their noses up at the design for the art gallery, but even the most curmudgeonly Edmontonians are warming up to it, and it seems it has created an appetite for more thoughtful, artistic design for our downtown buildings.

Can we reconsider Ledcor's bid? Could we field a few ideas from architects and engineers that have a stronger vision for downtown? I think Edmontonians have made it clear that it's not just what's inside the building that counts.


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09-17-2011, 02:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
1) Sorry - meant the Guggenheim in Bilbao - I just listed museums I've been to in the last year. That one was built in 1997.

2) Centre Pompidou - is the quintessential example of how important architecture can be to a museum. It's bold design made it one of the worlds most discussed museums for a long time.

3) The New Acropolis Museum in Athens. Might be my favorite museum ever. Amazing - check it out if you're ever in Athens.
I'll grant you the first two, but Arcopolis is cheating because it's a new museum to replace the one, which all centered around some of Greece's most famous historical landmarks

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09-18-2011, 10:47 AM
  #60
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Yawn. Another boring box building in edmonton. Does this design really look any different than the majority of buildings we already have? We have an opportunity to do something cool and innovative, and instead we get this... awesome
boxy = lower cost.

Meh, they can adjust it somewhat yet...

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09-18-2011, 12:17 PM
  #61
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Just a few pts. I don't like the design that was picked as I mentioned.

But its since been revealed that the draft that was picked from Architect Donna Clare won out because she had been doing designs for the RAM for years and including the previous botched expansion of present facility. It was felt that Clare, do to the past working relationship with museum staff knew most about what they wanted in a museum design. That she had that pulse from working locally with them.

That said its disappointing that in Edmonton, a city that lacks attractive architecture, that the opinion of curators hold more weight than the publics.

Well at least the museum staff all like it..

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09-18-2011, 01:14 PM
  #62
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Hey guys, a bit of an outsiders view, here. Here in Winnipeg, we've been building the new Museum for Human rights. Amid all sorts of controversy, as is always inevitable. Here, they opted for the 'edgy' look in an attempt for the label "world class". Now I am a fan of modern architecture, so I'm all for it. Some critics, however have labelled it as out of place in its historic locale, and somewhat of an eyesore overall. Fair criticism in my view as well. Never mind all the funding and political problems that always come with these sort of projects. Point being, you'll never please everyone with these sort of projects, all you can hope for is that given time they become a significant feature in your cultural landscape. While a little staid for my tastes, your new museum may eventually just achieve that, and become what it was always meant to be.

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09-18-2011, 01:22 PM
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Hey guys, a bit of an outsiders view, here. Here in Winnipeg, we've been building the new Museum for Human rights. Amid all sorts of controversy, as is always inevitable. Here, they opted for the 'edgy' look in an attempt for the label "world class". Now I am a fan of modern architecture, so I'm all for it. Some critics, however have labelled it as out of place in its historic locale, and somewhat of an eyesore overall. Fair criticism in my view as well. Never mind all the funding and political problems that always come with these sort of projects. Point being, you'll never please everyone with these sort of projects, all you can hope for is that given time they become a significant feature in your cultural landscape. While a little staid for my tastes, your new museum may eventually just achieve that, and become what it was always meant to be.
Just so you understand the context downtown Winnipeg contains several preserved and beautiful architecturaly buildings and periods.
Winnipeg never underwent a boom like Edmonton that resulted in the fullscale demolition of much of our architectural heritage in favor of circa 70's big boxes and big box towers.
Edmonton architecture is numbingly bad.

Thats why each design means so much here now. The lack of foresight by our town fathers pissed much of our architectural heritage away.

Plus theres been surprisingly little development downtown in recent decades and nearly every undertaking being public funded buildings to spur the downtown to something better. At least to make it look less like 1970..

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09-19-2011, 11:03 AM
  #64
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I think everyone agrees that the Museum doesn't have the 'wow' factor that we hoped for but at the same time I think the critisisms have been a little over the top.

Hopefully the more constructive comments are taken into consideration and some adjustments make their way into the final product but either way this will still be an nice addition to the downtown.

I also think that most people here put too much stock into the term 'world class'. Especially considering it appears that most people don't seem to know what it actually means.

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09-19-2011, 11:08 AM
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I think everyone agrees that the Museum doesn't have the 'wow' factor that we hoped for but at the same time I think the critisisms have been a little over the top.

Hopefully the more constructive comments are taken into consideration and some adjustments make their way into the final product but either way this will still be an nice addition to the downtown.

I also think that most people here put too much stock into the term 'world class'. Especially considering it appears that most people don't seem to know what it actually means.
It was my fourth choice. That being said I understand that changes are often made and the final product can look different than the proposal.

I am not going to get too excited either way yet.

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09-19-2011, 11:41 AM
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I think everyone agrees that the Museum doesn't have the 'wow' factor that we hoped for but at the same time I think the critisisms have been a little over the top.

Hopefully the more constructive comments are taken into consideration and some adjustments make their way into the final product but either way this will still be an nice addition to the downtown.

I also think that most people here put too much stock into the term 'world class'. Especially considering it appears that most people don't seem to know what it actually means.
Don't understand this comment. Most people I talked to liked the Ellis Don proposal. Several people in the media preferred the Ellis Don proposal.

I don't think anybody confuses that proposal with "world class" either but just preferred it out of the 4 lukewarm designs.

I don't think I heard one person that was in favor of the chosen design. Like I said earlier this decision got made due to the Architects ongoing relationship with the Museum and project. She understood what the RAM wanted, not necessarily what the public wanted.
Which is a bit odd re: a publicly funded building.

At least we won't have to look at the Graham design ever again. Thats a win right there.

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09-19-2011, 11:48 AM
  #67
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I preferred EllisDon as well. But we barely know what the designs looked like on the inside. Maybe the Ledcor one was superior in that regard. Besides, once I looked at the Ledcor video, it looks better than I thought it did, with more varied architecture around the building.

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09-19-2011, 11:56 AM
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I preferred EllisDon as well. But we barely know what the designs looked like on the inside. Maybe the Ledcor one was superior in that regard. Besides, once I looked at the Ledcor video, it looks better than I thought it did, with more varied architecture around the building.
There were drafts of the inside and outside of the buildings afairc a similar proportion thereof. I also like the Ellis Don interior and thought that design worked well for a museum.
Not sure however whether the inside drawings were more artistic renderings or a reasonable fascimile of the design. They seemed to match the Exterior design.

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09-19-2011, 12:12 PM
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Don't understand this comment. Most people I talked to liked the Ellis Don proposal. Several people in the media preferred the Ellis Don proposal.
I wasn't actually critisizing or endorsing the chosen design.

I don't think there is enough distinction between the 4 to really have that kind of conversation.

All 4 designs lack a 'wow' factor.

That said, it's a museum so the inside does count whether we want it to or not.

If this design team had an advantage based on previous work with the curator and existing Museum then so be it. It's up to other teams to come up with something more original in order to seperate themselves from the pack with originality and new ideas.

They didn't.

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I don't think anybody confuses that proposal with "world class" either but just preferred it out of the 4 lukewarm designs.
The world class comment was a general observation that doesn't necessarily have to be about the museum.

'World class' isn't just about being 'old', 'ornate' or 'different'. They can be elements of it but it doesn't make the definition. Case in point, The Winspear Centre IS world class,even though it doesn't have the characteristics I just listed.

And yet, in this thead anyways, those appear to be the qualifiers.

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09-19-2011, 12:23 PM
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I wasn't actually critisizing or endorsing the chosen design.

I don't think there is enough distinction between the 4 to really have that kind of conversation.

All 4 designs lack a 'wow' factor.

That said, it's a museum so the inside does count whether we want it to or not.

If this design team had an advantage based on previous work with the curator and existing Museum then so be it. It's up to other teams to come up with something more original in order to seperate themselves from the pack with originality and new ideas.

They didn't.



The world class comment was a general observation that doesn't necessarily have to be about the museum.

'World class' isn't just about being 'old', 'ornate' or 'different'. They can be elements of it but it doesn't make the definition. Case in point, The Winspear Centre IS world class,even though it doesn't have the characteristics I just listed.

And yet, in this thead anyways, those appear to be the qualifiers.
Thanks for the well explained reply. gotcha.

ftr i'm no fan of the "world class" moniker either. Plus that the type of thinking can hinder actual ongoing progress. One need think no further than the Original "world class" underground LRT design which was an ode to London, Paris, Bart, etc underground platforms. Of course also being outrageously expensive. That decision to have "world class" LRT has basically resulted in decades of next to no progress in our LRT.

Rather than World class I prefer designs that just speak to our location, province, etc, and that work for this clime, or geography. I like characteristic nods to who and what we are. A public building like a museum should represent that. I always thought the present RAM pulled that off in some way. That was a rather striking build for the 60's and featuring at the time beautiful limestone exterior/slate interior.
I liked the use of local building materials in the design. A concept that should have spread much more here but that only seemed to gain foothold at the U of A.

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09-19-2011, 12:43 PM
  #71
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Rather than World class I prefer designs that just speak to our location, province, etc, and that work for this clime, or geography. I like characteristic nods to who and what we are. A public building like a museum should represent that. I always thought the present RAM pulled that off in some way. That was a rather striking build for the 60's and featuring at the time beautiful limestone exterior/slate interior.
I liked the use of local building materials in the design. A concept that should have spread much more here but that only seemed to gain foothold at the U of A.
I like the original Museum and one of the aspects that it has that I really wish the new one would incorporate are the steps leading towards the main entrance.

It would do two things, it would raise the profile of the building on the avenue which could help distingusih it from the mall/school comment that keeps getting thrown out there and it would help provide a sense of arrival for the patrons. I really don't like the grade level entrance the renderings show.

It's a museum, when you are approaching it you should feel like you are about to enter something important.

The Natural History Museum and Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY have this going on in spades. It makes a big statement without the rediculous 'the building is a sculpture' crap that a place like the Royal Ontario Museum or Winnipeg's new Human Rights Museum is trying to accomplish.

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