The organization has shown a hesititancy to go the long-term deal route. What's the longest contract we've signed anyone to, 5 years? Hard to see them giving 7 to Subban but you never know. If Subban has another really good year, I could definitely see Subban and his agent looking for Myers type money. Doesn't mean the Habs will give it to them but hey, that's the agent's job.
RFA contracts are just really hard to predict across the board. Everyone thought Marchand would get a huge deal, and he wound up signing at 2 years for 2.5m per.
I agree with this. I think the organisation will try to sign him to a shorter term deal or two to cover his RFA years and then give him a chance to go for the moon come UFA time.
Markov was a 32 year old who had played 7 games over the previous season and a half! I don't think his salary could ever seriously brought up in a conversation with Subban's agent. If they decide to work on something long term, Myers will surely be mentioned.
Do you think it's a coincidence that first time RFA's Marchand and Bogosian signed the exact same contract on the same day?
So you are just going to ignore the 9 or so seasons Markov had with the team prior?
So you are just going to ignore the 9 or so seasons Markov had with the team prior?
No, in fact that's even more reason why Markov and Subban's situations are not even close!
Using players who achieve similar results, in similar roles, in similar stages of their careers, around the league makes sense for establishing value. Using completely different players on the same team doesn't. It seems obvious.
I'm hoping we get the same deal Myers got. We'd be buying him through his RFA years but I don't want to be paying a guy 6M+ because it's so easy to hate on a guy for being paid a crapload of money. If he's making top-2 d-man money and not superstar money then he's a lot easier to like even after he makes mistakes.
PK is coming into the last year of his entry level contract, so we could have him for 4 more years. Like I posted elsewhere Id sign him to a 2 year deal in order to give both the team and PK a much better idea of what he will deliver, then sign him to a long term contract if he delivers. By leaving 2 years of RFA at the end of his next contract we have leverage with him. What I mean is while we want him to play he also wants to play so leaving out offer sheets, maybe we would all agree to $8M over the last 2 years ( if he is delivering ) and if you thought he would get around $7.5-$ 8.0 as a UFA ( 4 at $ 7.5 - $ 8.0 plus $ 8.0 over 2 years ) you sign him to around $38-$40M for 6 years. He benefits because hes getting around $5M more in those 2 RFA years than he otherwise would and we benefit by eating away at 4 UFA years in a long term contract, and at a lower long term Cap hit. If he has another good season you could even go with a one year deal and then sign him to the big one.
No, in fact that's even more reason why Markov and Subban's situations are not even close!
Exactly. Here is an experienced, loyal, dominant two way defensemen, that put up massive points on the club. He makes $5-5.5 million dollars.
What justification does Subban have to be making more than him?
What has he proven, and earned, to be paid more than the best defenseman on the team?
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Using players who achieve similar results, in similar roles, in similar stages of their careers, around the league makes sense for establishing value.
Who in the league has a similar role to Subban, who has achieved similar results?
You are also comparing players accomplishments, in completely different contexts and environments. What one player did on one team, has little relevance to what another did on his.
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Using completely different players on the same team doesn't. It seems obvious.
It works within the team's structure. IE you have to surpass someone on the team, to earn a contract greater than his. It creates a real context in what their salary should be.
As in the words of Holland(paraphrasing): "We have no basis to pay Rafalski more than Lidstrom."
If you want to use other players contracts as a small basis, fine, but to say something along the lines of "well this person got this much, so that is what he will get" is fallacious. There is a market set in UFA, because players are free agents, but for RFAs, they are restricted to the team and their team's internal salary structures.
I'm seriously starting to think that PK Subban will be to the NHL what Michael Jordan was to the NBA commercially.
The only way he'd become anything like a league-wide poster boy is if he secured the #1 D-man position on that team even with a Markov on his best game in the roster.
The only way he'd become anything like a league-wide poster boy is if he secured the #1 D-man position on that team even with a Markov on his best game in the roster.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities.
I'd really love to have him become a poster boy. Might draw more Black American audience to the game, some of them might be actual Habs fans!! :-D
Exactly. Here is an experienced, loyal, dominant two way defensemen, that put up massive points on the club. He makes $5-5.5 million dollars.
What justification does Subban have to be making more than him?
What has he proven, and earned, to be paid more than the best defenseman on the team?
It's not about what has been earned. It's about how much a team is willing to bet on a player outperforming his contract. If the Habs believe that buying out two of Subban's UFA years at 26 and 27 years old is worth a long term deal, it should cost them roughly 5.5m/yr. If not, they will agree on a shorter deal. It's about deciding what's the best move for the team going forward, not merit.
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1
Who in the league has a similar role to Subban, who has achieved similar results?
You are also comparing players accomplishments, in completely different contexts and environments. What one player did on one team, has little relevance to what another did on his.
Well, clearly we are talking about Myers. By these numbers, they had similar seasons, PK playing in slighter tougher situations.
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1
It works within the team's structure. IE you have to surpass someone on the team, to earn a contract greater than his. It creates a real context in what their salary should be.
As in the words of Holland(paraphrasing): "We have no basis to pay Rafalski more than Lidstrom."
Rafalski was a UFA. We are assuming that if he had insisted on more money, Detroit would have walked away. Fair enough. All this thread is assuming, is that if the Habs want to sign Subban long term, Myers' contract will set the bar for negotiations. If the Habs don't like it, they can offer a shorter deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1
If you want to use other players contracts as a small basis, fine, but to say something along the lines of "well this person got this much, so that is what he will get" is fallacious. There is a market set in UFA, because players are free agents, but for RFAs, they are restricted to the team and their team's internal salary structures.
If that were true, teams would force all their RFA's to sign the lowest possible QO. What would be the downside? In reality, there is the potential for holding out, offer sheets, or sometimes going to Europe. The market still has some (not as much as with UFA's, of course) impact.
In this specific case, the Myers comp, what we are talking about is a long term contract that buys out UFA years. In this case, the player and agent, and therefore the market, have considerable power.
If 22 year old players signed long term deals based on what teams decided they had "earned," you'd see every potential top talent signed to below market value contracts that took them into their thirties.
The only way he'd become anything like a league-wide poster boy is if he secured the #1 D-man position on that team even with a Markov on his best game in the roster.
But you didn't catch the last word in my sentence; commercialy
P.K is already one of the best young D's in the league and his career ceilling is to be one of the best Dman in the NHL one day, IMHO.
Considering he's one of the only black players in the NHL who is aspiring to be an All-Star, I do believe it can stimulate a rise of popularity in hockey to black kids around the world. He's the only one who in my opinion who is shaping up to be a role model in the black community.
But you didn't catch the last word in my sentence; commercialy
P.K is already one of the best young D's in the league and his career ceilling is to be one of the best Dman in the NHL one day, IMHO.
Considering he's one of the only black players in the NHL who is aspiring to be an All-Star, I do believe it can stimulate a rise of popularity in hockey to black kids around the world. He's the only one who in my opinion who is shaping up to be a role model in the black community.
A player's effectiveness as a league-wide marketing tool seems to depend heavily on his on-ice performance. Then again, Subban has a charisma that neither Crosby nor Price have. That being said, he only needs to reach that ceiling to be able to supplant Crosby/Ovechkin as the main marketing tools of the NHL.
A player's effectiveness as a league-wide marketing tool seems to depend heavily on his on-ice performance. Then again, Subban has a charisma that neither Crosby nor Price have.
Well, you're talking as if Subban was a marginal defenseman. He has the tools to back it up, has done it so far. Only time will tell how good will he actually be.
I think we'll resign Subban to a long-term deal at 5 million, unless he gets like 55+ points and is a Norris nominee or something. Something like 7 yr, 35 Million dollar deal.
I don't think Subban will take more than the captain, he just strikes me as being more negotiable and reasonable. Also I believe he'll be getting lots of endorsements anyways to give him pay day there, and be more interested in creating a little cap space for his team to play with than squeezing an extra mill or 2.
Last edited by HockeyF3ind: 09-15-2011 at 02:48 PM.
The organization has shown a hesititancy to go the long-term deal route. What's the longest contract we've signed anyone to, 5 years? Hard to see them giving 7 to Subban but you never know. If Subban has another really good year, I could definitely see Subban and his agent looking for Myers type money. Doesn't mean the Habs will give it to them but hey, that's the agent's job.
RFA contracts are just really hard to predict across the board. Everyone thought Marchand would get a huge deal, and he wound up signing at 2 years for 2.5m per.
We haven't really had the type of blue-chippers that I would feel comfortable throwing 5+ years at. Subban and Price are those kind of players. I think we'll see long-termers starting next year.
We are better off signing PK to a 2 yr contract then give him a long term contract when his RFA years are coming close to an end. Kind of like how we did it with Price.
Price will get a 5-6 year contract that will take him to his early 30's. You get a little more vaue out of those prime 26-30 years that way.
Look at the Isles, they are so happy with the Tavarres contract but at the end of it, he'll be a UFA in his prime 26, ready to leave NY. It was actually bad for them in the real long run imo. It gives JT his freedom pretty damm close to as possible and he gets paid good money his whole time there. Then can leave for the Rangers for a $10m payday by then.
