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Old
09-17-2011, 01:14 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Where are the Shark's cups?
They get in every year and have a chance.
Recently they just added a defenseman by the name of Brent Burns to improve the team that much more.

One of the best teams on paper

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:15 PM
  #77
Shanny
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I watch a team like the Sharks trade prospects and picks like they are candy. A poor farm system is no excuse for not winning.
which is fine, but the goal here is to be an elite team for a very long time, the Sharks only have about 3 great years of Joe,Patty, and Boyle left....then I fully expect them to be a cellar dwellars again after their best players start to decline and they find themselves with no one within the organization that can fill those huge holes. Couture and Pavelski will be the new guys that they end up rebuilding around.

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09-17-2011, 01:19 PM
  #78
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which is fine, but the goal here is to be an elite team for a very long time, the Sharks only have about 3 great years of Joe,Patty, and Boyle left....then I fully expect them to be a cellar dwellars again after their best players start to decline and they find themselves with no one within the organization that can fill those huge holes. Couture and Pavelski will be the new guys that they end up rebuilding around.
They will just go out and pick up more star talent when there top guys are gone... we already see that with Brent Burns.

The Sharks of the perfect example of why a team does not need a good prospect pool to remain competitive.

When BM took over he should have been able to keep this team at an elite level.

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09-17-2011, 01:25 PM
  #79
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Or we see a team like the Boston Bruins who rebuilt properly and won with a bunch of guys they drafted and developed in Krecji, Bergeron, Lucic etc.

Or how about Chicago?

Penguins?

Red Wings?

But hey we could be like the Sharks.

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09-17-2011, 01:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Or we see a team like the Boston Bruins who rebuilt properly and won with a bunch of guys they drafted and developed in Krecji, Bergeron, Lucic etc.

Or how about Chicago?

Penguins?

Red Wings?

But hey we could be like the Sharks.
I think we have a winner folks!

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09-17-2011, 01:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
They will just go out and pick up more star talent when there top guys are gone... we already see that with Brent Burns.

The Sharks of the perfect example of why a team does not need a good prospect pool to remain competitive.

When BM took over he should have been able to keep this team at an elite level.
..the more that I think about...that sounds like exactly the type of approach that has set the Leafs back for many years.

there were so many different factors and events that occured that makes it really hard to judge whether or not this team could have stayed elite or not for another 2 years or so after the cup final. I pinpoint it all to the hiring of John Paddock.

Regardless though, elite teams like Detroit, Boston, Chicago, Washington, or Pittsburgh are what were trying to model ourselves after(teams with great prospect systems, great drafting, great coaching and great talent on their current rosters), I'd much rather be in the Hawks or Wings,Pens, Bruins, or Caps situation with a great team and a well stocked pipeline versus the Sharks in which their going to be lacking some serious depth and star power and will most likely have some cap issues after their forced to go out and overpay for number of free agent players that might or might not be able to fill those big holes very effectively.


Last edited by Shanny: 09-17-2011 at 01:34 PM.
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Old
09-17-2011, 01:33 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Or we see a team like the Boston Bruins who rebuilt properly and won with a bunch of guys they drafted and developed in Krecji, Bergeron, Lucic etc.
Thomas - UFA signing
Chara - UFA signing
Recchi - UFA signing
Ryder - UFA signing
Horton - Trade
Seidenberg - Trade
Kaberle - Trade
etc

The Bruins entire defense and goaltending was built through UFA or trades.

I think only four Bruins were homegrown

Good example man

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:49 PM
  #83
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I'm happy with the Murrays drafting record and ability to sign NCAA players. I'm not sure why fans of other teams care so much, but I don't think Sens fans are any more unreasonably optimistic or trusting in their management. If the Murrays can draft a core of players, like they did in Anaheim, to build around, great. Any schmuck can do the final touches of UFAs later.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:09 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Thomas - UFA signing
Chara - UFA signing
Recchi - UFA signing
Ryder - UFA signing
Horton - Trade
Seidenberg - Trade
Kaberle - Trade
etc

The Bruins entire defense and goaltending was built through UFA or trades.

I think only four Bruins were homegrown

Good example man
Oh the fuhr. You are a smart hockey mind for most things, but this theory you dont need a good prospect pool is laughable at best. only "4" of the 18 main skaters were developed by the bruins, who cares thats 20% of the iced roster. hhaha. You got owned in this debate, and you are now scraping for your winning logic. Admit you have not won this round. On to the next one son, you win most, just not this time.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:16 PM
  #85
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Any schmuck can hold a fire sale and accept the highest draft picks on offer. If the Murrays had simply drafted according to the Central Scouting list we'd be just as pleased with the players drafted. It'll be years before we'll know if Zibanejad is better than Couturier, whether going off the board for Noesen was the right move and trading two second round picks to draft Puempel was worth it. I don't know whether or not not we drafted particularly well but I'm not prepared to assume the picks were brilliant just because the Murrays made them.


Last edited by Ed Wood: 09-17-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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Old
09-17-2011, 03:20 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Any schmuck can hold a fire sale and accept the highest draft picks on offer. If the Murrays had simply drafted according to the Central Scouting list we'd be just as pleased with the players drafted. It'll be years before we'll know if Zibanejad is better than Couturier, whether going off the board for Noesen was the right move and trading two second round picks to draft Puempel was worth it. I don't know whether or not not we drafted particularily well but I'm not prepared to assume the picks were brilliant just because the Murrays made them.
You know whats great. You are not asked to assume anything, or believe anything. Free Will is a gift!

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Old
09-17-2011, 04:42 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Any schmuck can hold a fire sale and accept the highest draft picks on offer. If the Murrays had simply drafted according to the Central Scouting list we'd be just as pleased with the players drafted. It'll be years before we'll know if Zibanejad is better than Couturier, whether going off the board for Noesen was the right move and trading two second round picks to draft Puempel was worth it. I don't know whether or not not we drafted particularly well but I'm not prepared to assume the picks were brilliant just because the Murrays made them.
No. Apparently they can't. That's why different staffs have different historical success in the draft. Given a pick outside of the top 10 - the Murrays have a much better drafting record than many GMs/staffs. It's just a conditional probability.

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Old
09-17-2011, 04:59 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Thomas - UFA signing
Chara - UFA signing
Recchi - UFA signing
Ryder - UFA signing
Horton - Trade
Seidenberg - Trade
Kaberle - Trade
etc

The Bruins entire defense and goaltending was built through UFA or trades.

I think only four Bruins were homegrown

Good example man
I agree with Fuhr,

you don't need a deep prospect pool to be able to compete consistently, although it helps its not necessary. You just need to be able to manage your assets properly

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Old
09-17-2011, 06:19 PM
  #89
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I don't see it as an either/or. Teams that build well have a mixture of drafting, trading and free-agents. You don't always need to maintain a super deep prospect pool - but at some point you need to have a core group of players develop that you can build around.

I totally respect what the Fuhr is saying, but key additions like Thomas and Chara were just as necessary as draftees like Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic and Marchand. They weren't going to even have a shot at winning without both those groups.

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Old
09-17-2011, 08:21 PM
  #90
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i also play wheel of fortune when ranking sens prospects
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Clamshells View Post
i also snort cocaine when ranking sens prospects
Fixed
why cant we do both?

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Old
09-17-2011, 09:15 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
The Sharks of the perfect example of why a team does not need a good prospect pool to remain competitive.
Well, actually Sharks had pretty good prospects 5-10 years ago: Setoguchi, Clowe, Pavelski, Vlasic, Couture, Carle, Michalek, Ehrhoff, Cheechoo, Hannan, Marleau, Sturm, Kiprusoff, Toskala all drafted by San Jose.
They don't have anyone now - their best prospect is not even in that Prospectus top 100 list (bad list but anyway). So where they are headed remains to be seen.

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Old
09-17-2011, 09:57 PM
  #92
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I agree with Fuhr,

you don't need a deep prospect pool to be able to compete consistently, although it helps its not necessary. You just need to be able to manage your assets properly
That`s really what I am trying to say. I totally understand the value in youth and prospects but I don`t think it is needed to be a high level team.

The Sens have a still young franchise center... it really blows my mind that we can`t build a 40+ win team around him with ease that can compete for a cup yearly

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Old
09-17-2011, 10:01 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
The Sharks of the perfect example of why a team does not need a good prospect pool to remain competitive.
Fuhr, I like you buddy, but this is a silly statement to make.

Let's look a little deeper, shall we?

Shark's roster...
Top 10 Forwards
Patrick Marleau - Drafted by San Jose
Joe Pavelski - Drafted by San Jose
Logan Couture - Drafted by San Jose
Ryan Clowe - Drafted by San Jose
Torrey Mitchell - Drafted by San Jose
Jamie McGinn - Drafted by San Jose
Martin Havlat - Acquired via trade for Heatley, who was acquired for Milan Michalek (a Sharks 1st rounder), Jonathan Cheechoo (Sharks 2nd rounder, and a 2nd round pick
Joe Thornton - Acquired via trade (for Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart; both successful former Sharks 1st rounders)
Michal Handzus - Free Agent
Benn Ferriero - Free Agent

6/10 forwards drafted by the Sharks
2/10 forwards traded for using a healthy amount of successful former Sharks draft picks (Michalek, Sturm, Stuart, Cheechoo)
2/10 forwards acquired in free agency
= 8 of the top ten Sharks forwards were either drafted or traded for in exchange for players the Sharks organization successfully drafted (ie: players they "drafted well")


Top 6 Defence
Douglas Murray - Drafted by San Jose
Jason Demers - Drafted by San Jose
M.A. Vlasic - Drafted by San Jose
Dan Boyle - Acquired via trade (for Matt Carle, Ty Wishart, a 1st and 4th round pick)
Brent Burns - Acquired via trade for Devin Setoguchi, Charlie Coyle, and a 1st rounder
Colin White -Free Agent

3/6 defencemen drafted by the sharks
2/6 defencemen traded for using a wealth of former Sharks draft picks (Setoguchi, Coyle, Carle, picks)
1/6 defencemen acquired via free agency
= 5 of the top 6 Sharks defencemen were either drafted or traded for in exchange for players the Sharks organization successfully drafted or picks

... to suggest that the Sharks didn't need a good prospect pool to stay competitive is crazy. That whole Sharks team is BUILT on absolutely shrewd drafting, and being in the enviable position of continuously drafting talent to either play on the Sharks roster, or drafting players valuable enough to land star players in return through trades.

If the Sharks aren't a top-drafting team over a long period of time, there's no way they're as good as they are now, or as good as they have been over the past 8 years or so.

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Old
09-17-2011, 10:07 PM
  #94
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Most of the Sharks core players were trade... Thornton, Havlat, Boyle, Burns, Neimi
the talent that wind games

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09-17-2011, 10:11 PM
  #95
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Most of the Sharks core players were trade... Thornton, Havlat, Boyle, Burns, Neimi
the talent that wind games
Most of the Sharks core players were trade... and were acquired because the players the Sharks dealt away to get those star players were successful draft picks that other teams coveted. Without multiple successful drafts to produce a system with talented players, the Sharks are in absolutely NO position to acquire those players (Thornton, Havlat, Boyle, etc...)

(see my previous post for slightly more in-depth breakdown)

So yeah. There's that.

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Old
09-17-2011, 10:24 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Any schmuck can hold a fire sale and accept the highest draft picks on offer. If the Murrays had simply drafted according to the Central Scouting list we'd be just as pleased with the players drafted. It'll be years before we'll know if Zibanejad is better than Couturier, whether going off the board for Noesen was the right move and trading two second round picks to draft Puempel was worth it. I don't know whether or not not we drafted particularly well but I'm not prepared to assume the picks were brilliant just because the Murrays made them.
Couldn't disagree more. Ottawa has one of the - if not the best scouting staff in the business. When they believe one guy has 'it' over another, I'd be inclined to believe in them.

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Old
09-18-2011, 08:22 AM
  #97
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Most of the Sharks core players were trade... and were acquired because the players the Sharks dealt away to get those star players were successful draft picks that other teams coveted. Without multiple successful drafts to produce a system with talented players, the Sharks are in absolutely NO position to acquire those players (Thornton, Havlat, Boyle, etc...)

(see my previous post for slightly more in-depth breakdown)

So yeah. There's that.
I completely agree with this. Fuhr is now just trying to convince us that apples are oranges...

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Old
09-18-2011, 08:34 AM
  #98
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Those pies are going to surprise a few next dessert.

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Old
09-18-2011, 07:56 PM
  #99
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This is why I hope the Sens never draft one of those cowardly visor-wearing Quebecois players, nor any of those heartless European softies.
QFT.

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Old
09-18-2011, 08:41 PM
  #100
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Talk about overreaction. Ziba could have been ranked 7.0 D and I still wouldn't care. These are meant as guides for prospect information, not for factual analysis of how a prospect turns out. If you think that last sentence makes sense, then you're probably upset about the rankings.

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