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Old
09-17-2011, 10:08 AM
  #1
Beerfish
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Our Captain...

I hate to create a post so soon on this topic, especially when this is a time to look forward to the season with much optomism but his words in the Journal today struck a chord.

It talks about him looking forward to having Belanger with his 55.3 faceoff percentage and he says: "You have to have at least two guys. It's too hard for one guy to carry that."..."Those hard minutes in the (defensive zone)."

Now me may be right but you'd swear he has been reading the pletitude of posts on these forums about the unciorn like "hard minutes" and how he is the only play on the team that every faces these hard minutes. Also a convenient excuse for sucking in his job. Shawn you are being paid 6.5 a year to be the man who wins 55% of the draws.

The article then talks about the possiblity of a 'sophomore slump' for our young players. Horcoff offers this up. "If all three of those players build upon what they did last year that will be a bonus. History shows that is probably not going to happen, so we're going to do what we can to help those kids stay positive and continue to work hard. It's a process. There's going to be ups and downs."

Funny comments seeing as it's been proven time and again that Horcoffs production pretty well totally depends on him having skilled linemates as he generates almost nothing himself.

In my mind a captain has to have personal or team success to back up what he preaches and Horcoff has had little of either the last few years. Is what he says in this article technically true? Perhaps but to me, an avoid Horcoff unbeleiver it comes off as excuse making when he's supposed to be a prime piece of the puzzle and a lack of faith in the players who have and will make him look good in the future.

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09-17-2011, 10:14 AM
  #2
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Let's kick him in the shin.

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09-17-2011, 10:42 AM
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If he came out as cocky as all hell, you'd accuse him of being arrogant and out-of-touch.

I like what he says about the three sophmores.

This city is ridiculous with young players. Good rookie season; you're a hall-of-famer. Bad sophmore season; you're an AHLer. Horcoff knows as well as anyone the wild, manic-depressive nature of Oiler fans, and he's just preparing the young guys for the inevitable up's and down's they will experience in this city. Don't let the highs get too high, or the lows get too low (and there will be lows. I know some of you think Hall is going to go from 22 to 35 to 50 to 60 goalis over the next three seasons but that's not realistic).

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09-17-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard View Post
If he came out as cocky as all hell, you'd accuse him of being arrogant and out-of-touch.

I like what he says about the three sophmores.

This city is ridiculous with young players. Good rookie season; you're a hall-of-famer. Bad sophmore season; you're an AHLer. Horcoff knows as well as anyone the wild, manic-depressive nature of Oiler fans, and he's just preparing the young guys for the inevitable up's and down's they will experience in this city. Don't let the highs get too high, or the lows get too low (and there will be lows. I know some of you think Hall is going to go from 22 to 35 to 50 to 60 goalis over the next three seasons but that's not realistic).
How about showing a bit of confidence in the players that are already much better than you are and will continue to get better? His big strategy is to set them up for the way it has been with the team the last few years and certainly with Horcoff. It's okay to fail, it's okay to have bad years, it's okay to make excuses.

Bloody poor leadership there. Horcoff has been a large part of the problem the last few years not the solution. Really a bad choice for captain.

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Old
09-17-2011, 12:22 PM
  #5
DisgruntledGoat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
How about showing a bit of confidence in the players that are already much better than you are and will continue to get better? His big strategy is to set them up for the way it has been with the team the last few years and certainly with Horcoff. It's okay to fail, it's okay to have bad years, it's okay to make excuses.

Bloody poor leadership there. Horcoff has been a large part of the problem the last few years not the solution. Really a bad choice for captain.
Horcoff has talked about how talented and important those guys are a thousand times.

Maybe that quote is directed more at the fanbase than the particular players? Subtly saying, 'don't start booing these guys when they don't finish 1-2-3 in league scoring this year?'.

Horcoff doesn't need to talk to Hall or Eberle through the media. They sit a couple feet away from him.

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Old
09-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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Give me a break. There is nothing wrong with what he said.

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09-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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I think you're looking for something that isn't there. He's being honest. Everything he said was correct. Is he supposed to insult our intelligence just because he's a member of the team? I can't stand those typical hockey player answers where everything is butterflies and rainbows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard View Post
Horcoff has talked about how talented and important those guys are a thousand times.

Maybe that quote is directed more at the fanbase than the particular players? Subtly saying, 'don't start booing these guys when they don't finish 1-2-3 in league scoring this year?'.

Horcoff doesn't need to talk to Hall or Eberle through the media. They sit a couple feet away from him.
His wife cooks the majority of their pregame meals...but yeah, terrible captain

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Old
09-17-2011, 12:30 PM
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Threads like these really distinguish the people who know what they're talking about, and the people who have a completely irrational hatred of a particular player/management figure.

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09-17-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Threads like these really distinguish the people who know what they're talking about, and the people who have a completely irrational hatred of a particular player/management figure.
That about sums up 90% of hfboards.

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:04 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Threads like these really distinguish the people who know what they're talking about, and the people who have a completely irrational hatred of a particular player/management figure.
Haha...yup!

It's pretty pathetic when yo think about it.

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:10 PM
  #11
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And, with that, they're off! Let the annual Horcoff bashfest begin!

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:14 PM
  #12
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If Horcoff was signed to a club like the Rangers, Bruins, Flyers, Leafs ect he would already be in the minors.

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:17 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
His wife cooks the majority of their pregame meals...but yeah, terrible captain
Yes he should cook the meals himself. What kind of captain is this Horcoff guy? Is his wife doing the captain speeches aswell during the breaks?

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Old
09-17-2011, 01:25 PM
  #14
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So, because you think he sucks, he can't talk about whether a team needs more than one good faceoff guy?

There go the jobs of 90% of the commentators on TV.

Dude, you're reaching. Or projecting. Or both.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:17 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I hate to create a post so soon on this topic, especially when this is a time to look forward to the season with much optomism but his words in the Journal today struck a chord.

It talks about him looking forward to having Belanger with his 55.3 faceoff percentage and he says: "You have to have at least two guys. It's too hard for one guy to carry that."..."Those hard minutes in the (defensive zone)."

Now me may be right but you'd swear he has been reading the pletitude of posts on these forums about the unciorn like "hard minutes" and how he is the only play on the team that every faces these hard minutes. Also a convenient excuse for sucking in his job. Shawn you are being paid 6.5 a year to be the man who wins 55% of the draws.

The article then talks about the possiblity of a 'sophomore slump' for our young players. Horcoff offers this up. "If all three of those players build upon what they did last year that will be a bonus. History shows that is probably not going to happen, so we're going to do what we can to help those kids stay positive and continue to work hard. It's a process. There's going to be ups and downs."

Funny comments seeing as it's been proven time and again that Horcoffs production pretty well totally depends on him having skilled linemates as he generates almost nothing himself.

In my mind a captain has to have personal or team success to back up what he preaches and Horcoff has had little of either the last few years. Is what he says in this article technically true? Perhaps but to me, an avoid Horcoff unbeleiver it comes off as excuse making when he's supposed to be a prime piece of the puzzle and a lack of faith in the players who have and will make him look good in the future.
When I read Horcoffs comment there all I see is positives.

He is taking the pressure off the young guys and letting them find their groove. That is what good captains do.

And Horcoff is a good captain.

As far as other people parroting the hard minutes line..... Have you ever considered, maybe .. just maybe there might be something to it?

......

Really it boggles the mind that people cant see that playing against better players, or in being put out in worse situations wouldnt affect your defencive load.

Plus what the coach is asking you to do, that makes a difference how players play.

Seems to me most coaches are happy with Horcoff does, course all those coaches must be crazy!!!

........

And what a great surprise, you need to play with good players to have success. I guess the two rookies Horcoff started with last year are seen as great linemates by the conventional wisdon on this site.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:28 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I hate to create a post so soon on this topic, especially when this is a time to look forward to the season with much optomism but his words in the Journal today struck a chord.
I mostly disagree with your contention in the rest of the post, but don't really have a problem with the opinion. However, I would like to say that there is nothing in your Horcoff posting history that allows me to believe the first clause of your first sentence.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:32 PM
  #17
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The comments don't mean anything to me and I'm fine with what got stated. So I don't agree with the OP premise.

On the other hand I make no bones in stating that Horcoff is the captain of a very poor club and a task he's well designed and setup for. He's the quintessential highly paid, well looked after yesman in an org and a guy that wouldn't counter anything the org did or had to say if this was a trainwreck heading towards a broken trestle and a cliff..

My take is he's got the job for 2 more seasons at which point I think we should find somebody better suited.

A guy thats not able to lead the team in any capacity on the ice has a hard time leading the club as a captain. We saw that with Moreau. "I'm your captain, I suck as a hockey player in every way, do as I say, not as I play, oh nevermind.."

A skilled team needs a captain with some level of skill. jmo.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreasyGrinder View Post
If Horcoff was signed to a club like the Rangers, Bruins, Flyers, Leafs ect he would already be in the minors.
He would be the #1 centre for the Leafs.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:49 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
On the other hand I make no bones in stating that Horcoff is the captain of a very poor club and a task he's well designed and setup for. He's the quintessential highly paid, well looked after yesman in an org and a guy that wouldn't counter anything the org did or had to say if this was a trainwreck heading towards a broken trestle and a cliff..
Because that's a good captain. A guy that *****es and complains about things the players on the ice have no control over (ie: management decisions).

The players have no control over who is in the dressing room. A leader brings those players together, helps foster a belief in one another and in the game plan, and leads by example. That's it.

And as for your last point, there have been plenty of good 'unskilled' captains. I actually hate the current, 'give the C to the best player' philosophy in hockey. I agree with your assessment of Moreau, but not every third-line captain needs to be that way. Kelly 'I'm going to fight Bob Probert if he even looks at my teammates the wrong way and follow that up by blocking a shot with my face' Buchberger was a fine captain.

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:53 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard View Post
Because that's a good captain. A guy that *****es and complains about things the players on the ice have no control over (ie: management decisions).

The players have no control over who is in the dressing room. A leader brings those players together, helps foster a belief in one another and in the game plan, and leads by example. That's it.

And as for your last point, there have been plenty of good 'unskilled' captains. I actually hate the current, 'give the C to the best player' philosophy in hockey. I agree with your assessment of Moreau, but not every third-line captain needs to be that way. Kelly 'I'm going to fight Bob Probert if he even looks at my teammates the wrong way and follow that up by blocking a shot with my face' Buchberger was a fine captain.
Its more a philosophical point but prescient leadership often involves taking a stance, opposing a bad plan, and speaking out. Maybe not so much in the world of sports but does occur.
Accepting everything at face value is actually delivering less value to the org. A strong org is often founded on spoken leadership and direction at all levels. Not top down subservience.

Buchberger was a fine captain on mostly a not so good team. Could you really see him captaining a contending team? Would todays version of skilled players regard the guy?

Its not just what we think, its what players think. jmo But I think the guy that brings it on the ice or that has been integral to a contending team is the guy people listen to more.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:08 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Byakin1 View Post
He would be the #1 centre for the Leafs.
No he wouldn't. Burke would ship him.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:16 PM
  #22
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Lets not talk about Horcoff like he's useless. Hes not Redden. He can still a quality NHLer when put in the right role. He'd be an effective 3rd line center on a lot of teams. It's not his fault that he's our #1 center by default.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:25 PM
  #23
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I dont have any problem with what he said.

I am more concerned with how he plays on the ice.

It wasnt like he was throwing anyone under the bus ala Moreau.

My wish is for this board to stop flogging personal agendas with threads like these. I know I have been guilty of it myself so I include myself in this as well.

This kind of stuff is a turn off tbh.

It would be nice to talk about stuff that is relevant for a change.

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:50 PM
  #24
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Much ado about nothing...

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Old
09-17-2011, 03:56 PM
  #25
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If you listen to this entire interview, if nothing else, it comes off more as a calling out of Gagner.

Horc spoke about the value of adding Belanger...but....he went on to point out the neccesity of having THREE solid centres...and...of course...he's 100% correct.

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