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Old
09-18-2011, 01:51 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Stor View Post
Karlsson/Alfredsson I know you want to think that is good enough to get the Kings' defensive leader but it really isn't. Karlsson is a good player, don't get me wrong. But he's still learning and to be honest? I doubt the Senators would have even kept them around if they hadn't been forced to go into rebuild mode. Look at his plus/minus rating for goodness sake! It's minus thirty and there is a reason for it. And unfortunately for Erik? LA has already been through the years of rebuilding and they sure don't want to be there again. He isn't going to help them, raise their spot in the conference or really improve them in any way. So why waste time with him? Why is it even a little bit worth it? Don't get me wrong. I respect who Daniel Afredsson is and who he was but even the most diehard Sens fan has to have realized that he's not getting any younger. The Kings team is young and if he would even be able to catch up to them in the first place, it wouldn't last for long.

Doughty There was a poster above me who said he wouldn't touch Doughty with a pole and this made me smile. You wouldn't touch a young budding defenseman with incredible poise and skill? Well then. I know so many peoples opinions of this kid are dropping like flies because of the disputes being had with him and Lombardi. Is he acting like a bit of a diva? Sure! But you only act like a diva in this league and continue to have your team pursue you if you're good. In fact, make that really good. Lombardi offered him a monster contract for a reason, remember that. And then, if you want to continue to have your argument destroyed, look at his stats for the previous season. Forty points, plus thirteen, and his points were only better the year before. Notice how he was practically the face of his team while Karlsson has really just been another skater in the background? I think that makes things pretty clear that he is clearly the better player. And in the terms of Alfredsson? There are 17 years between them and that is really all that needs to be said. Last time I checked, Drew wasn't showing any signs of slowing.
I laughed at trying to use the +/- of a bottom dwelling team, but when you said 'Karlsson was just another skater in the background' I realized that you've likely never seen him play a significant number of games.

Love Doughty. But downplaying what you call being a 'diva' won't fly with a fanbase that's sat through Yashin's hold-outs, Havlat and Heatley.

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09-18-2011, 08:42 AM
  #52
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Sorry, you're right, I could have been more clear. I assumed by the reports that Doughty was in fact holding out for Kopitar kind of money (around 6.8). Since Karlsson still on his ELC, that was about 6 million difference (although obviously that would narrow somewhat the following year).
What about the $$ of Alfred ?

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09-18-2011, 08:50 AM
  #53
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Damn Karlsson... watch your +/-. You're 4 points away from Kovalchuk aka the scrubbiest player in the NHL.

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09-18-2011, 10:40 AM
  #54
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Karlsson, using +/-, better defensively than Phillips. I doubt anyone would agree with that statement, which is why using +/- is a joke.

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09-18-2011, 11:57 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
What about the $$ of Alfred ?
Totally a fair point. In my head I was thinking about this trade as where does it get us in a few years. Because I'm betting this is Alfie's last year, I was only considering what looks to be a monster contract for DD versus what will be much smaller for EK.

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09-18-2011, 01:28 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
He's slightly better than a 4-5, PP specialist no matter the team. What are you talking about?
I think he meant that Karlsson is a great young PP guy but 4th or 5th defensively on a good team.

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Originally Posted by BBurke View Post
A basis around Karlsson and Doughty might work, but LA would need another top prospect as well as a competent roster player (Michalek?) to make it work.
Is this a joke??

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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
I'm pretty sure they were referring to your "He's a 4-5, PP specialist on a good team." comment. If you really believe that, you either don't know much about hockey, or haven't watched much of Karlsson. The kid is a legit all-star at the age of 20, has incredible vision, speed, and a howitzer of a shot, and is still several years away from even being close to entering his prime. His D is a bit lacking, but how many 20 year old Dmen do you know playing full time minutes in the NHL on a terrible team are defensive rocks (as well as the offensive dynamo that Karlsson is). Will he end up better than Doughty? Maybe yes, maybe no, time will tell. But to call him a PP specialist or a 4-5 Dman on even a good team is just ignorant.
Well there is Schenn at 21 for the D side of it and IMO the D part is harder to learn and if that's there all ready the O side of it can be learned by more PP time and more offensive zone starts, plus Schenn has the base O skills just needs more opportunity to develop them. As far as young D who are good on both ends look at Myers and Doughty who are both better than Karlsson.

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Originally Posted by Valley Boys View Post
I laughed at trying to use the +/- of a bottom dwelling team, but when you said 'Karlsson was just another skater in the background' I realized that you've likely never seen him play a significant number of games.

Love Doughty. But downplaying what you call being a 'diva' won't fly with a fanbase that's sat through Yashin's hold-outs, Havlat and Heatley.
I 100% agree Ott fans would have a hate on for Doughty if he was an Ott hold out. Where I don't agree is how Sen's fan's currently see Karlsson. He is a great offensive D man but what makes him better than D like Fowler, Wisniewski, Giordano, Goligosky, Johnson, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, Edler, Letang and Carlson? I left out a ton of D that I think are much better due to obviousness and if they were 6+yrs older. Plus I think the Sens have 2 D prospects that will over take Karlsson in a few yrs in Rundblad and Cowen.

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Old
09-18-2011, 04:26 PM
  #57
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I think he meant that Karlsson is a great young PP guy but 4th or 5th defensively on a good team.

We understand what he meant. Even then that's a laugh. Karlsson is already on our top pairing playing 22+ minutes a night and playing as our best defense man for the majority of the season last year. If Karlsson improves in strength and defense he is a number 1 on a Stanley Cup team. Watch him play before making posts like this

Is this a joke??

He meant Ottawa. Michalek is on the Sens.

Well there is Schenn at 21 for the D side of it and IMO the D part is harder to learn and if that's there all ready the O side of it can be learned by more PP time and more offensive zone starts, plus Schenn has the base O skills just needs more opportunity to develop them. As far as young D who are good on both ends look at Myers and Doughty who are both better than Karlsson.

Is this a joke? EVERYONE knows that you can't teach skill but you can teach defense. This makes no sense. Look at previous prospects who racked up PPG numbers in their respective CHL teams like Chris Phillips etc... and can't produce in NHL.

I 100% agree Ott fans would have a hate on for Doughty if he was an Ott hold out. Where I don't agree is how Sen's fan's currently see Karlsson. He is a great offensive D man but what makes him better than D like Fowler, Wisniewski, Giordano, Goligosky, Johnson, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, Edler, Letang and Carlson? I left out a ton of D that I think are much better due to obviousness and if they were 6+yrs older. Plus I think the Sens have 2 D prospects that will over take Karlsson in a few yrs in Rundblad and Cowen.

Karlsson has better pure offensive skill than any of those defense man you mentioned, arguably against some. Watch him play first. 20 year old All-star who racked up second on the team in points and 45 points on a team with the 2nd least amount of goals scored. Also, we WISH Rundblad can contribute and play like Karlsson.
Bolded.

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09-18-2011, 04:53 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post

We understand what he meant. Even then that's a laugh. Karlsson is already on our top pairing playing 22+ minutes a night and playing as our best defense man for the majority of the season last year. If Karlsson improves in strength and defense he is a number 1 on a Stanley Cup team. Watch him play before making posts like this
Don't forget being # 2 on the Sens in no honor, maybe they were -a billion for a reason, but I guess the Sens need him to be soo amazing for their sanity, in truth he is no better than Letang, Fowler, Goligoski and Myers>>>Karlsson.


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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Is this a joke? EVERYONE knows that you can't teach skill but you can teach defense. This makes no sense. Look at previous prospects who racked up PPG numbers in their respective CHL teams like Chris Phillips etc... and can't produce in NHL.
Really now??? hom many D have gone from avg 2nd-3rd pairing guys to great offensive D men just by simply getting PP time. I thought you watched hockey enough to know that the role you are played in has a huge effect on points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Karlsson has better pure offensive skill than any of those defense man you mentioned, arguably against some. Watch him play first. 20 year old All-star who racked up second on the team in points and 45 points on a team with the 2nd least amount of goals scored. Also, we WISH Rundblad can contribute and play like Karlsson.
I've seen the kid play! he is good but IMO Subban=Karlsson but Subban is better in his own zone and isn't far enough behind Karlsson offensively to make up for how far behind Karlsson is defensively. I'm not sure if it was you who said that not every team has to be represented but usually that's the case but of late some teams have been refusing to go to save their players.

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09-18-2011, 05:13 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Don't forget being # 2 on the Sens in no honor, maybe they were -a billion for a reason, but I guess the Sens need him to be soo amazing for their sanity, in truth he is no better than Letang, Fowler, Goligoski and Myers>>>Karlsson.




Really now??? hom many D have gone from avg 2nd-3rd pairing guys to great offensive D men just by simply getting PP time. I thought you watched hockey enough to know that the role you are played in has a huge effect on points.




I've seen the kid play! he is good but IMO Subban=Karlsson but Subban is better in his own zone and isn't far enough behind Karlsson offensively to make up for how far behind Karlsson is defensively. I'm not sure if it was you who said that not every team has to be represented but usually that's the case but of late some teams have been refusing to go to save their players.
Letang and Goligoski are 4 and 6 years older than Karlsson and play on much better offensive teams. Fowler also had a horrific minus rating even though his team wasn't bottom 5 NHL, Myers is better than Karlsson but doesn't come close to his offensive skill.

Please give me examples of defense man that were 3rd pairing and exploded to become great offensively. Lol.

Also, I don't understand what you were saying about the Sens's sanity? Or what-not and the Subban comparisons doesn't add much proof to your argument(I really don't know what you were trying to prove)

Karlsson is underrating defensively. He was part of a PK team that was 95% since February when he joined it. I'm not saying he is the reason but surely he wouldn't have been apart of that success rate if he was as horrible as you make him out to be.

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09-18-2011, 05:46 PM
  #60
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The whole point of what I'm trying to say is Sen's fans over hype Karlsson slightly worse than we Leaf fans hype Schenn. Karlsson is a good player and so is Schenn but not as good as most Sen's/Leaf fans think

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09-18-2011, 05:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
The whole point of what I'm trying to say is Sen's fans over hype Karlsson slightly worse than we Leaf fans hype Schenn. Karlsson is a good player and so is Schenn but not as good as most Sen's/Leaf fans think

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09-18-2011, 06:18 PM
  #62
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I'm not really sure what that says that wasn't covered allready, yes Karlsson was at the allstar game, yes he is good at getting points but if the All star game was selected on best players and not best players on each team I think Karlsson would have been at the rookie all star game. Any how my point from the start was Karlsson is a great young D man but not elite caliber like Sen's fans are portraying him to be. I understand the Sens need a bright spot on their dismal team right now and Karlsson fits the bill but man I think in a cpl years after Rundblad and Cowen start to hit their stride the Karlsson mania will subside and he will be labeled as he should be as a great PP QB who puts up a ton of points, reminds me of a younger Kaberle.

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09-18-2011, 06:28 PM
  #63
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People don't show ENOUGH respect to Karlsson if anything.

He's proved himself in his 1st and only playoff exposure above and beyond a player his age and would only look stronger on a better team than the mess that was the Ottawa Senators in 2010-2011. Put this guy on a team like Detroit and people would be saying he is gonna take over from Lidstrom.

Skill and hockey sense are the keys to a great player, and Karlsson has both in oodles. What he lacks is size and strength. He isn't even bad defensively like some make him out to be due to his overrated +/- on a terrible team playing upwards of 24 mins a night and against the other teams top 2 lines.

His problems lie with his ability to handle big forwards in front and behind his net cutting on him. He almost never makes boneheaded giveaways moving up the puck or in his own end indicative of lack of defensive and hockey awareness.

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Old
09-18-2011, 09:01 PM
  #64
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You folks do realize that Lidstrom and Keith are only a bit bigger than Karlsson right? I hear that they are pretty good.

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09-18-2011, 09:55 PM
  #65
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Are they 20 year olds too?

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09-18-2011, 10:06 PM
  #66
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It's always someone's alternate avatar with 62 posts that creates these ridiculous proposals.

Doughty stays in LA.

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09-18-2011, 10:10 PM
  #67
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You folks do realize that Lidstrom and Keith are only a bit bigger than Karlsson right? I hear that they are pretty good.
Lidstrom would be entering his Rookie year at the same age Karlsson is entering his third. Keith would be entering his second AHL year (If my math is right) when Karlsson is in his third NHL season... So really, your point makes no sense.

Not to mention no one is throwing around names like Lidstrom or Keith. Plus Lidstrom is listed as 6'2" 190, Keith as 6' 190, Karlsson as 5'11 165 (weight is most likely wrong). But when Lidstrom has 2 inches on him, do not say they are only a little bit bigger.

Karlsson gets a lot of flack for being on such a bad team last season, and this makes non sens fans assume he is bad defensively. As well though a lot of sens fans cut him a ton of slack due to being young and learning the defensive side of the game.

All in all, this deal would not go through seeing how Karlsson is basically the face for the Swedish rebuild and is our Lidstrom (not as good, but the PMD) to our Detroit styled team.

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09-18-2011, 11:58 PM
  #68
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Ottawa doesn't want Doughty because they are in a rebuild. They are not trying to acquire expensive all-stars.

Ottawa will not trade Alfredsson and Alfredsson doesn't want to leave Ottawa.

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09-19-2011, 12:09 AM
  #69
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I have absolutely no idea why any Sen fan would say no to this.

Doughty is going to be a top 5 dman, while Karlsson is a point producing dman that is average at best at actually playing defense.

I understand it could be tough to give up Alfy, but this should be too good to say no to.

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09-19-2011, 12:46 AM
  #70
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I have absolutely no idea why any Sen fan would say no to this.

Doughty is going to be a top 5 dman, while Karlsson is a point producing dman that is average at best at actually playing defense.

I understand it could be tough to give up Alfy, but this should be too good to say no to.
If I was a robot who purely evaluated things based on pluses and minuses, then you're right, no Sens fan would say no to this. However, I could not trade Alfie unless he asked to be traded to a contender. When I say 'not trade Alfie' I mean for anything. He has earned the right to retire wherever he wants and as a fan I'm willing to suffer through a longer period of suckitude in order to make sure Alfie gets what he wants. So no to any proposal involving Alfie unless he requests it.

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09-19-2011, 04:08 AM
  #71
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You folks do realize that Lidstrom and Keith are only a bit bigger than Karlsson right? I hear that they are pretty good.
Yes I can understand you have heard this.

Now go watch them play because Lidstrom is at least 6'1''.

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09-19-2011, 09:40 AM
  #72
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Well, it doesn't exactly seem like he's the type of person who will give in to what he doesn'twant.

So in that case I can understand.
See? I edited your error without sarcasm. Imagine that?

Karlsson and Alfie do not get Doughty, no matter what any Sens fan wants or doesn't want. Even the mighty CowEn wouldn't net you Doughty, but you wouldn't want that deal since CowEn fills a need on your team, right?

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09-19-2011, 09:45 AM
  #73
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I'm entitled to my opinion, as are you.

My opinion is that most good teams have at least 3 better defenseman for 5 on 5. And by legit all star, do you mean among the top d in the game, or the Senators representative? Every team has to send somebody.

No doubt he's got great offensive ability, but I don't see him being able to match up against other teams top lines. Doughty already does at 21.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.
The only knocks on EK are his defense. Fact is, 99% of Dmen that age (Doughty is more in the 1%) are bad defensively, that develops over the first few years. I'd bet that even Lidstrom wasn't the best defensively at 20 years old. Another fact is that even Lidstrom would be a huge - in +/- if he played on Ottawa last year. Elliott can turn even the world's best Dman into a minus factory.

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Jeez, let's see, Doughty?

The guy that said he is a 4-5 defenseman is just flat out wrong, but Doughty has accomplished much more than Karlsson and they are basically the same age (Doughty is 6 months older).
Doughty is a one-off. Are you going to get on Foligno for not being as good offensively as Crosby next? Anyone can find one example to go against a general rule. That's why its called a general rule.

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I laughed at trying to use the +/- of a bottom dwelling team, but when you said 'Karlsson was just another skater in the background' I realized that you've likely never seen him play a significant number of games.

Love Doughty. But downplaying what you call being a 'diva' won't fly with a fanbase that's sat through Yashin's hold-outs, Havlat and Heatley.
This.

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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
I think he meant that Karlsson is a great young PP guy but 4th or 5th defensively on a good team.



Is this a joke??



Well there is Schenn at 21 for the D side of it and IMO the D part is harder to learn and if that's there all ready the O side of it can be learned by more PP time and more offensive zone starts, plus Schenn has the base O skills just needs more opportunity to develop them. As far as young D who are good on both ends look at Myers and Doughty who are both better than Karlsson.



I 100% agree Ott fans would have a hate on for Doughty if he was an Ott hold out. Where I don't agree is how Sen's fan's currently see Karlsson. He is a great offensive D man but what makes him better than D like Fowler, Wisniewski, Giordano, Goligosky, Johnson, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, Edler, Letang and Carlson? I left out a ton of D that I think are much better due to obviousness and if they were 6+yrs older. Plus I think the Sens have 2 D prospects that will over take Karlsson in a few yrs in Rundblad and Cowen.
Its probably true that both Schenn and Karlsson are (slightly) overhyped by their respective fans. It's also true that they are both excellent young players in their respective roles (EK offensively, LS defensively), but yeah, defense can be taught, skill and vision, not so much . That is why offensive Dmen are valued more highly than stay at home Dmen, because D and positioning can be learned; you can't teach skill and vision, you either have it or you don't.

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Old
09-19-2011, 11:37 AM
  #74
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Karlsson isn't even that bad defensively. He needs to put on some weight for sure, but he plays good D, he'll get better at it.

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09-19-2011, 11:40 AM
  #75
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Ottawa says no thanks, I not touching Doughty with a ten feet pole, and Karlsson will be better than him anyway and Alfredsson retires as a Sens.
Please share your drugs.

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