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Old
09-19-2011, 10:42 AM
  #76
Sureves
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I'm entitled to my opinion, as are you.

My opinion is that most good teams have at least 3 better defenseman for 5 on 5. And by legit all star, do you mean among the top d in the game, or the Senators representative? Every team has to send somebody.

No doubt he's got great offensive ability, but I don't see him being able to match up against other teams top lines. Doughty already does at 21.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Some people are of the opinion that gravity doesn't exist, are they entitled to their opinion?

In relation to the OP, LA wouldn't do that deal, my question to LA fans is if they would be interested in:

Karlsson, Cowen, Michalek for Doughty?

Any rational Sens fan would do that, mainly because we have a logjam on D as it is and upgrading 1 very good defenseman + 1 potentially #1 shutdown defenseman for an elite defenseman just makes a ton of sense.

How do you guys feel about it?

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09-19-2011, 10:44 AM
  #77
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Doughty is one of the top young defenders in the league ,but he isnt a piece that ottawa needs right now we have EK , Rundblad and to a lesser extent gonchar. I think we are good in the pmd department .

Ottawa needs elite forwards ,with that said why is ottawa even being mentioned in a trade rumour for an defenseman

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Old
09-19-2011, 10:46 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Some people are of the opinion that gravity doesn't exist, are they entitled to their opinion?

In relation to the OP, LA wouldn't do that deal, my question to LA fans is if they would be interested in:

Karlsson, Cowen, Michalek for Doughty?

Any rational Sens fan would do that, mainly because we have a logjam on D as it is and upgrading 1 very good defenseman + 1 potentially #1 shutdown defenseman for an elite defenseman just makes a ton of sense.

How do you guys feel about it?
Yeah no ,ottawa is never going to give up that ,La would have to add

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09-19-2011, 11:11 AM
  #79
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Yeah no ,ottawa is never going to give up that ,La would have to add
Michalek = good riddance, I'd trade him for a 2nd (.5 first round picks)

Cowen = unproven, but potential shutdown d (1.5 first round picks)

EK = very good defenseman, yet we can all agree not in the league of DD (2 first round picks) (maybe 2.5 firsts but maybe that's my homerism)

So really I'm offering the value of 4 first round picks for DD (or 4.5 if you agree with my 2.5 firsts for Karlsson assessment)

I think that's pretty much exactly what Mr. Doughty is worth, and for that reason I think it's a fair trade. It also doesn't hurt LA for this year, since Michalek can provide some offense now, and EK can definitely bring the heat from the point and put up an easy 50-60 points on that team. Cowen will likely play this year, but won't do too much, but likely will develop for the future.

IF Alfy wanted to go to a SC team, then you can replace Michalek for Alfy for the same trade, but I doubt he wants to go.

As for why Ottawa does this? We have too many defenseman. Karlsson is a great defenseman who will consistently put up 50-70 points for the duration of his prime-career. He also has some flaws defensively, which Doughty doesn't. Doughty also hits: Karlsson doesn't. Doughty also appears to be a leader; Karlsson (though I'm kind of talking out of my ass, doesn't).

Even if we traded Cowen and EK our D in the future still looks rather strong considering these are just the prospects and assuming we don't do anything in the UFA market - which obviously we will because this d-core, even if they develop, isn't strong enough, but at least demonstrates that we have a substantial amount of talent back there already:

Doughty Rundblad
Carkner Lee
Borowiecki Wiercioch

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09-19-2011, 12:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Michalek = good riddance, I'd trade him for a 2nd (.5 first round picks)

Cowen = unproven, but potential shutdown d (1.5 first round picks)

EK = very good defenseman, yet we can all agree not in the league of DD (2 first round picks) (maybe 2.5 firsts but maybe that's my homerism)

So really I'm offering the value of 4 first round picks for DD (or 4.5 if you agree with my 2.5 firsts for Karlsson assessment)

I think that's pretty much exactly what Mr. Doughty is worth, and for that reason I think it's a fair trade. It also doesn't hurt LA for this year, since Michalek can provide some offense now, and EK can definitely bring the heat from the point and put up an easy 50-60 points on that team. Cowen will likely play this year, but won't do too much, but likely will develop for the future.

IF Alfy wanted to go to a SC team, then you can replace Michalek for Alfy for the same trade, but I doubt he wants to go.

As for why Ottawa does this? We have too many defenseman. Karlsson is a great defenseman who will consistently put up 50-70 points for the duration of his prime-career. He also has some flaws defensively, which Doughty doesn't. Doughty also hits: Karlsson doesn't. Doughty also appears to be a leader; Karlsson (though I'm kind of talking out of my ass, doesn't).

Even if we traded Cowen and EK our D in the future still looks rather strong considering these are just the prospects and assuming we don't do anything in the UFA market - which obviously we will because this d-core, even if they develop, isn't strong enough, but at least demonstrates that we have a substantial amount of talent back there already:

Doughty Rundblad
Carkner Lee
Borowiecki Wiercioch
Yikes that top 4 looks horrible,we are not in the market for a doughty type defender .That trade would ruin us, we just dont have the depth on defense not to mention forward to offer that .And how do you know what Rundblad and EK are capable of not to mention cowen .

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09-19-2011, 12:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by topshelf15 View Post
Yikes that top 4 looks horrible,we are not in the market for a doughty type defender .That trade would ruin us, we just dont have the depth on defense not to mention forward to offer that .And how do you know what Rundblad and EK are capable of not to mention cowen .
Dude c'mon, I even bolded the important parts so you wouldn't miss it and you STILL missed it.

As I said in my post, obviously that top 6 isn't good enough, but that is because that's assuming we don't touch the UFA market or trades at all which is completely unrealistic. Obviously the Sens would need to make a signing or trade, you know, just like they did for Gonchar, Kuba, and Campoli.

As for what they are capable of, nobody can possibly know that, it's just my/scouts best estimate.

I'm merely estimating what their current value is on the market, and I personally think I did a pretty good job.

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09-19-2011, 12:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Dude c'mon, I even bolded the important parts so you wouldn't miss it and you STILL missed it.

As I said in my post, obviously that top 6 isn't good enough, but that is because that's assuming we don't touch the UFA market or trades at all which is completely unrealistic. Obviously the Sens would need to make a signing or trade, you know, just like they did for Gonchar, Kuba, and Campoli.

As for what they are capable of, nobody can possibly know that, it's just my/scouts best estimate.

I'm merely estimating what their current value is on the market, and I personally think I did a pretty good job.
Sorry yep your right ,the value is right but there is no way ottawa does this.


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09-19-2011, 01:21 PM
  #83
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Karlsson/Alfredsson I know you want to think that is good enough to get the Kings' defensive leader but it really isn't. Karlsson is a good player, don't get me wrong. But he's still learning and to be honest? I doubt the Senators would have even kept them around if they hadn't been forced to go into rebuild mode. Look at his plus/minus rating for goodness sake! It's minus thirty and there is a reason for it. And unfortunately for Erik? LA has already been through the years of rebuilding and they sure don't want to be there again. He isn't going to help them, raise their spot in the conference or really improve them in any way. So why waste time with him? Why is it even a little bit worth it? Don't get me wrong. I respect who Daniel Afredsson is and who he was but even the most diehard Sens fan has to have realized that he's not getting any younger. The Kings team is young and if he would even be able to catch up to them in the first place, it wouldn't last for long.

Doughty There was a poster above me who said he wouldn't touch Doughty with a pole and this made me smile. You wouldn't touch a young budding defenseman with incredible poise and skill? Well then. I know so many peoples opinions of this kid are dropping like flies because of the disputes being had with him and Lombardi. Is he acting like a bit of a diva? Sure! But you only act like a diva in this league and continue to have your team pursue you if you're good. In fact, make that really good. Lombardi offered him a monster contract for a reason, remember that. And then, if you want to continue to have your argument destroyed, look at his stats for the previous season. Forty points, plus thirteen, and his points were only better the year before. Notice how he was practically the face of his team while Karlsson has really just been another skater in the background? I think that makes things pretty clear that he is clearly the better player. And in the terms of Alfredsson? There are 17 years between them and that is really all that needs to be said. Last time I checked, Drew wasn't showing any signs of slowing.




Karlsson was on the team before the rebuild.

He played more than 20 minutes per game on a team that ended up as a #5 seed. He then went on to score 6 points in 6 postseason games against the defending Cup champion Penguins.

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09-19-2011, 02:01 PM
  #84
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I'm not really sure what that says that wasn't covered allready, yes Karlsson was at the allstar game, yes he is good at getting points but if the All star game was selected on best players and not best players on each team I think Karlsson would have been at the rookie all star game. Any how my point from the start was Karlsson is a great young D man but not elite caliber like Sen's fans are portraying him to be. I understand the Sens need a bright spot on their dismal team right now and Karlsson fits the bill but man I think in a cpl years after Rundblad and Cowen start to hit their stride the Karlsson mania will subside and he will be labeled as he should be as a great PP QB who puts up a ton of points, reminds me of a younger Kaberle.
Already covered in this thread - tell that to Florida or the Islanders!

As to your other point, I think that's quite fair that Karlsson is a great offensive-defensive prospect, but as of yet has not shown the consistency or all-around form to be considered one of the true elite defenceman in the league. Where I think we differ is that, watching Karlsson a lot, the moments when he shows his skills/instincts are so special and the frequency is increasing so rapidly that Sens fans are unlikely to consider trading him for anything other than serious assets.

We could be wrong. But we're willing to bet!

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Old
09-19-2011, 02:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Some people are of the opinion that gravity doesn't exist, are they entitled to their opinion?

In relation to the OP, LA wouldn't do that deal, my question to LA fans is if they would be interested in:

Karlsson, Cowen, Michalek for Doughty?

Any rational Sens fan would do that, mainly because we have a logjam on D as it is and upgrading 1 very good defenseman + 1 potentially #1 shutdown defenseman for an elite defenseman just makes a ton of sense.

How do you guys feel about it?
So do we. This is why we are not good trading partners.

Michalek has no value to me, Cowen is an unproven but high potential defender and Karlsson is ok.

If you would offer this with similar talented offense propects i would do the deal instantly

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Old
09-19-2011, 02:32 PM
  #86
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Ottawa doesn't want Doughty because they are in a rebuild. They are not trying to acquire expensive all-stars.

Ottawa will not trade Alfredsson and Alfredsson doesn't want to leave Ottawa.
And you can't rebuild with a 21 year old top all star dman? If anything, in a rebuild you try and acquire plays like Doughty when available (which they never are...and still aren't). It's not like Doughty is on the decline.

The Kings wouldn't want prospects back, but veteran players (but not ones that will retire in the next year old two).

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09-19-2011, 02:33 PM
  #87
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Already covered in this thread - tell that to Florida or the Islanders!

As to your other point, I think that's quite fair that Karlsson is a great offensive-defensive prospect, but as of yet has not shown the consistency or all-around form to be considered one of the true elite defenceman in the league. Where I think we differ is that, watching Karlsson a lot, the moments when he shows his skills/instincts are so special and the frequency is increasing so rapidly that Sens fans are unlikely to consider trading him for anything other than serious assets.

We could be wrong. But we're willing to bet!
Evgeni Dadonov and Michael Grabner take offense to that.

Every team has to send a representative, whether deserved or not. Believe whatever you'd like, but that's how it works.


And no, Michalek, Karlsson and Cowen isn't even close. Michalek holds very little trade value. Cowen is a solid defense prospect but he hasn't proven anything in the NHL and there is no guarantee he will. Karlsson is a 4-5 d man on a good team and definitely on the top PP unit. Karlsson can't defend top skill players, and can't defend big physical players.... that's his downfall. He's soft and weak.

Karlsson COULD develop in his own end and add significant strength, but you'll need to offer more in a replacement for one of the best defenseman in the league at 21 years old.

Very few teams could offer te Kings a solid return for Doughty without significantly hurting their own team. The Sens fall into that category.

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Old
09-19-2011, 02:35 PM
  #88
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So do we. This is why we are not good trading partners.

Michalek has no value to me, Cowen is an unproven but high potential defender and Karlsson is ok.

If you would offer this with similar talented offense propects i would do the deal instantly
Fair enough, makes sense to me, thanks for the feedback.

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09-19-2011, 02:39 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
So do we. This is why we are not good trading partners.

Michalek has no value to me, Cowen is an unproven but high potential defender and Karlsson is ok.

If you would offer this with similar talented offense propects i would do the deal instantly
Drew Doughty is an incredible talent, no one is denying or debating that. However the commentary of L.A kings fans on senator players is outrageous.

How does a former 6th overall pick consistent 20 plus goal scorer two way threat and great penalty killer have "no value".

How Is Karlsson just 'ok'. Do you know anything about him or his career? Have you ever watched? You do know he is from the same draft year (is a year younger) and outscored Doughty last season correct? You do know that he won best defensman at the WJC correct? While I am not debating that Karlsson is an elite defensive d man but to just say at 20 playing in the all star game being a top 15 scoring d man in the nhl on the second lowest scoring team in the nhl is just 'ok'. Displays a very limited amount of hockey knowledge in my option.


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09-19-2011, 02:45 PM
  #90
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Drew Doughty is an incredible talent, no one is denying or debating that. However the commentary of L.A kings fans on senator players is outrageous.

How does a former 6th overall pick consistent 20 plus goal scorer two way threat and great penalty killer have "no value".

How Is Karlsson just 'ok'. Do you know anything about him or his career? Have you ever watched?
Well to be honest bert, Michalek really isn't very good anymore. I think he was just paraphrasing when he said he has no value, in reality he's worth about a 2nd, but his value certainly isn't significant at this point.

He's had some good years for sure, but between injuries and the team change he just hasn't played like a "good second liner" in his tenure at Ottawa.

As for Karlsson, I am inclined to agree with you, Karlsson is definitely more than ok, hell he's even more than good. Again, I think the poster was saying more Karlsson is "ok" in comparison to Doughty.

I'm quite sure that he's aware that EK is a very good defenseman who will be potting 50-70 points for the rest of his career, but could use some fine tuning on his defense.

Like I said, I don't really disagree with what you're saying, just that I think you are misinterpreting his comments, as he did mention that if those players we were offering were all similar value-forward players he would make the trade.

Obviously he wouldn't trade Doughty for 1 no value player, 1 ok player, and 1 prospect, right?

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09-19-2011, 04:02 PM
  #91
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Karlsson/Alfredsson I know you want to think that is good enough to get the Kings' defensive leader but it really isn't. Karlsson is a good player, don't get me wrong. But he's still learning and to be honest? 1) I doubt the Senators would have even kept them around if they hadn't been forced to go into rebuild mode. 2) Look at his plus/minus rating for goodness sake! It's minus thirty and there is a reason for it. And unfortunately for Erik? LA has already been through the years of rebuilding and they sure don't want to be there again. He isn't going to help them, raise their spot in the conference or really improve them in any way. So why waste time with him? Why is it even a little bit worth it? Don't get me wrong. I respect who Daniel Afredsson is and who he was but even the most diehard Sens fan has to have realized that he's not getting any younger. The Kings team is young and if he would even be able to catch up to them in the first place, it wouldn't last for long.

Doughty There was a poster above me who said he wouldn't touch Doughty with a pole and this made me smile. 3) You wouldn't touch a young budding defenseman with incredible poise and skill? Well then. I know so many peoples opinions of this kid are dropping like flies because of the disputes being had with him and Lombardi. Is he acting like a bit of a diva? Sure! But you only act like a diva in this league and continue to have your team pursue you if you're good. In fact, make that really good. Lombardi offered him a monster contract for a reason, remember that. And then, if you want to continue to have your argument destroyed, look at his stats for the previous season. Forty points, plus thirteen, and his points were only better the year before. 4) Notice how he was practically the face of his team while Karlsson has really just been another skater in the background? I think that makes things pretty clear that he is clearly the better player. And in the terms of Alfredsson? There are 17 years between them and that is really all that needs to be said. Last time I checked, Drew wasn't showing any signs of slowing.
1) lol no. Sens were the 5th seed in the East in Karlsson's rookie season and he was playing 26 minutes a night come playoff time.

2) plus minus is a terrible statistic

3) That statement applies pretty well to Karlsson, too.

4) Karlsson is already one of the faces of the Sens. He's the team's all-star and is used extensively in promoting the Sens. He's the biggest fan favourite on the team after Spezza and Alfredsson (Doughty shares the spotlight with Kopitar in LA but the Kings don't really have an Alfredsson equivalent with Robitaille retired).

Obviously Doughty is better than Karlsson and I would trade Karlsson for him (I wouldn't trade Karlsson AND Spezza, though; that's insane). But the gap wasn't actually as big as you'd think last year. If Doughty rebounds and gets back to where he was in his sophomore season he's a clear level above. But if Karlsson keeps improving and Doughty continues to stall a bit it'll keep getting closer.

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09-19-2011, 04:09 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Cowen is a solid defense prospect but he hasn't proven anything in the NHL and there is no guarantee he will. Karlsson is a 4-5 d man on a good team and definitely on the top PP unit.
So I guess guys like B. Schenn and Rundblad have no value then eh? They haven't proven anything in the NHL yet either (apparently them playing very few if any games). You can say what you said about Karlsson as many times as you want, it doesn't make it true. I'm curious, how many NHL games have you watched Karlsson play? I, like most Sens fans here, have watched probably all but 4 or 5 (at most) of his games, and I assure you, your opinion of him is WAY off base. I eagerly await your response to my question.

And whether it is true or not that every team needs an all-star rep at the ASG, the fact is that Karlsson was there based on merit, and nothing else. No matter what you say or how much you try to devalue him, it doesn't change that.


Last edited by internetdotcom: 09-19-2011 at 04:30 PM.
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09-19-2011, 04:57 PM
  #93
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Evgeni Dadonov and Michael Grabner take offense to that.

Every team has to send a representative, whether deserved or not. Believe whatever you'd like, but that's how it works.


And no, Michalek, Karlsson and Cowen isn't even close. Michalek holds very little trade value. Cowen is a solid defense prospect but he hasn't proven anything in the NHL and there is no guarantee he will. Karlsson is a 4-5 d man on a good team and definitely on the top PP unit. Karlsson can't defend top skill players, and can't defend big physical players.... that's his downfall. He's soft and weak.

Karlsson COULD develop in his own end and add significant strength, but you'll need to offer more in a replacement for one of the best defenseman in the league at 21 years old.

Very few teams could offer te Kings a solid return for Doughty without significantly hurting their own team. The Sens fall into that category.
Once again. Can I have a list from 5 teams (or any team) with 3-4 dmen that would be playing infront of him... that would be much appreciated thanks. I mean otherwise it looks like you are just spitting out words with no basis for judgement.

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09-19-2011, 04:59 PM
  #94
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Once again. Can I have a list from 5 teams (or any team) with 3-4 dmen that would be playing infront of him... that would be much appreciated thanks. I mean otherwise it looks like you are just spitting out words with no basis for judgement.
Shh... I think you have let his secret out of the bag.

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09-19-2011, 05:04 PM
  #95
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Well it is clear that no one has actually seen Karlsson play.

That is fine, he is still a very young player.

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09-19-2011, 05:17 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Evgeni Dadonov and Michael Grabner take offense to that.

Every team has to send a representative, whether deserved or not. Believe whatever you'd like, but that's how it works.


And no, Michalek, Karlsson and Cowen isn't even close. Michalek holds very little trade value. Cowen is a solid defense prospect but he hasn't proven anything in the NHL and there is no guarantee he will. Karlsson is a 4-5 d man on a good team and definitely on the top PP unit. Karlsson can't defend top skill players, and can't defend big physical players.... that's his downfall. He's soft and weak.

Karlsson COULD develop in his own end and add significant strength, but you'll need to offer more in a replacement for one of the best defenseman in the league at 21 years old.

Very few teams could offer te Kings a solid return for Doughty without significantly hurting their own team. The Sens fall into that category.
Michalek, Karlsson and Cowen isn't enough. That's amazing, do you even know who these players are?

Karlsson's a 4-5 D-man? You need to watch before you talk.

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09-19-2011, 06:03 PM
  #97
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Shh... I think you have let his secret out of the bag.
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Well it is clear that no one has actually seen Karlsson play.

That is fine, he is still a very young player.
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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
Michalek, Karlsson and Cowen isn't enough. That's amazing, do you even know who these players are?

Karlsson's a 4-5 D-man? You need to watch before you talk.
OK guys seriously!!! I have seen Karlsson about 12 times last yr 6 Leaf games and 6 Habs games and yes he makes good decisions with the puck, yes he is offensively minded but he gets pushed off the puck in his own zone and shys away from hard fore checkers. He is weak in front of his own net and looses a lot of gritty puck battles along the boards. He is good however against the rush due to his speed but tends to get over powered any time in close. I'VE SEEN KARLSSON. IMO a Defencemen cannot be called elite until they improve in their own zone. I understand that he is young and his offensive hockey IQ is amazing and he is awesome to have on the PP but once or if he becomes better defensively then he can be called elite. There are just too many D who are similar to Karlsson and may be better like Petroangelo(sp?) Subban, Fowler etc. Now in the pre season game tonight watch Gardiner for the Leafs tonight is Karlsson in for the Sens?.

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09-19-2011, 06:31 PM
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HMM.. that 1st goal was all Gardiner.

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09-19-2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
OK guys seriously!!! I have seen Karlsson about 12 times last yr 6 Leaf games and 6 Habs games and yes he makes good decisions with the puck, yes he is offensively minded but he gets pushed off the puck in his own zone and shys away from hard fore checkers. He is weak in front of his own net and looses a lot of gritty puck battles along the boards. He is good however against the rush due to his speed but tends to get over powered any time in close. I'VE SEEN KARLSSON. IMO a Defencemen cannot be called elite until they improve in their own zone. I understand that he is young and his offensive hockey IQ is amazing and he is awesome to have on the PP but once or if he becomes better defensively then he can be called elite. There are just too many D who are similar to Karlsson and may be better like Petroangelo(sp?) Subban, Fowler etc. Now in the pre season game tonight watch Gardiner for the Leafs tonight is Karlsson in for the Sens?.
Of course EK is small, and of course he stays away from hits from guys much bigger than him. What would you suggest he do, go head first into guys twice his size and take a shot that may end his career? That's called knowing your strengths and weaknesses and playing within them. The kid is 20... he is going to fill out more. He won't become the size of Chara, but so what? And his defence will get better and better (as will his offence, as amazing as that is already). Dmen (particularly offensive ones) generally don't fully refine their defensive game until their mid 20s. If he's bad defensively in 5 years (he won't be), then you can criticize his defensive game.

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HMM.. that 1st goal was all Gardiner.
What exactly are you trying to prove with this?

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09-19-2011, 09:12 PM
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OK guys seriously!!! I have seen Karlsson about 12 times last yr 6 Leaf games and 6 Habs games and yes he makes good decisions with the puck, yes he is offensively minded but he gets pushed off the puck in his own zone and shys away from hard fore checkers. He is weak in front of his own net and looses a lot of gritty puck battles along the boards. He is good however against the rush due to his speed but tends to get over powered any time in close. I'VE SEEN KARLSSON. IMO a Defencemen cannot be called elite until they improve in their own zone. I understand that he is young and his offensive hockey IQ is amazing and he is awesome to have on the PP but once or if he becomes better defensively then he can be called elite. There are just too many D who are similar to Karlsson and may be better like Petroangelo(sp?) Subban, Fowler etc. Now in the pre season game tonight watch Gardiner for the Leafs tonight is Karlsson in for the Sens?.
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Of course EK is small, and of course he stays away from hits from guys much bigger than him. What would you suggest he do, go head first into guys twice his size and take a shot that may end his career? That's called knowing your strengths and weaknesses and playing within them. The kid is 20... he is going to fill out more. He won't become the size of Chara, but so what? And his defence will get better and better (as will his offence, as amazing as that is already). Dmen (particularly offensive ones) generally don't fully refine their defensive game until their mid 20s. If he's bad defensively in 5 years (he won't be), then you can criticize his defensive game.



What exactly are you trying to prove with this?
Bolded in first post, trying to show that offensive D men are a dime a dozen

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