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Old
09-19-2011, 10:37 PM
  #101
Iamok
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Bolded in first post, trying to show that offensive D men are a dime a dozen
Looks like somebody's mixed up offensive and defensive.

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Old
09-19-2011, 10:47 PM
  #102
xking23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Bolded in first post, trying to show that offensive D men are a dime a dozen
I really hope you aren't trying to say Karlsson=Gardiner. I mean I'll assume you watched the game, and Karlsson ran the game, out skating the Leafs whenever he touched the puck. Karlsson was a force and the only reason Ottawa had as many chances as they did.

And once again if Karlsson=Gardiner than Doughty=Marc-Andre Bergeron, Lidstrom=Kuba, Keith=Campoli.. you get the drift. Just because they play a similar style does not mean anything (and saying anyone minus Keith plays the same style as Karlsson is a stretch).

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09-19-2011, 10:57 PM
  #103
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There are so many goaltenders out there that every team can have two of them.

First liners are a dime a dozen, every team has three of them!

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Old
09-19-2011, 10:59 PM
  #104
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Bad time for any negative Karlsson comments. His skill level is off the charts.

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Old
09-20-2011, 10:58 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Michalek = good riddance, I'd trade him for a 2nd (.5 first round picks)

Cowen = unproven, but potential shutdown d (1.5 first round picks)

EK = very good defenseman, yet we can all agree not in the league of DD (2 first round picks) (maybe 2.5 firsts but maybe that's my homerism)

So really I'm offering the value of 4 first round picks for DD (or 4.5 if you agree with my 2.5 firsts for Karlsson assessment)

I think that's pretty much exactly what Mr. Doughty is worth, and for that reason I think it's a fair trade. It also doesn't hurt LA for this year, since Michalek can provide some offense now, and EK can definitely bring the heat from the point and put up an easy 50-60 points on that team. Cowen will likely play this year, but won't do too much, but likely will develop for the future.

IF Alfy wanted to go to a SC team, then you can replace Michalek for Alfy for the same trade, but I doubt he wants to go.

As for why Ottawa does this? We have too many defenseman. Karlsson is a great defenseman who will consistently put up 50-70 points for the duration of his prime-career. He also has some flaws defensively, which Doughty doesn't. Doughty also hits: Karlsson doesn't. Doughty also appears to be a leader; Karlsson (though I'm kind of talking out of my ass, doesn't).

Even if we traded Cowen and EK our D in the future still looks rather strong considering these are just the prospects and assuming we don't do anything in the UFA market - which obviously we will because this d-core, even if they develop, isn't strong enough, but at least demonstrates that we have a substantial amount of talent back there already:

Doughty Rundblad
Carkner Lee
Borowiecki Wiercioch
I think the value is close but i guess LA point a view it would never be enough unless they won a cup?

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:07 AM
  #106
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I'd take Doughty over Karlsson, as Doughty is a legitimate #1 defenceman while I see Karlsson more as a #2 guy. Karlsson is already a very good offensive defenceman, and he will only get better on both ends of the ice.

But Doughty is a bigger difference makers with his all-around game. He's the lead defenceman that the team has long searched for since Chara left. The Sens could also afford to deal Karlsson with Rundblad making the leap to the NHL this season.

I think a deal of Karlsson, Michalek, and a prospect would be fair value for Doughty. Ottawa may need to add a draft pick, but I think the value is there.

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:13 AM
  #107
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The posts about EK in this thread are ridiculous.

Also, Rundblad does not make Karlsson expendable, just like Pogge didn't make Rask expendable.

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:18 AM
  #108
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I see karlsson as a better offensive defenseman in the future.

Karlsson got more points this past year and very well could get more this coming year and for the future.

Doughty will always be better defensively, especially with his extra size.

I just don't see how trading for doughty's upgrade on defense is worth the downgrade in offense from karlsson PLUS cowen/1st/michalek etc.(whatever all proposals are)

The increase from karlsson to doughty isn't THAT great.

The most i'd give is karlsson,foligno and a 2nd/3rd and i realize LA would say no.

But people are seriously underestimating karlsson.

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:24 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
I see karlsson as a better offensive defenseman in the future.

Karlsson got more points this past year and very well could get more this coming year and for the future.

Doughty will always be better defensively, especially with his extra size.

I just don't see how trading for doughty's upgrade on defense is worth the downgrade in offense from karlsson PLUS cowen/1st/michalek etc.(whatever all proposals are)

The increase from karlsson to doughty isn't THAT great.

The most i'd give is karlsson,foligno and a 2nd/3rd and i realize LA would say no.

But people are seriously underestimating karlsson.
Some people had never even seen Karlsson play up until last night

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:27 AM
  #110
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Doughty's point totals went down last year, but the year before - in his age 20 season - he put up 59 points. His offensive upside is equal to Karlsson's and one could argue he may have more offensive potential due to his ability to go coast-to-coast. His hockey sense is also off the charts.

So the team wouldn't be losing any - and could actually be gaining - offence by dealing Karlsson for Doughty, and Doughty represents a massive upgrade defensively.

Regarding Rundblad, yes, his addition doesn't make Karlsson expendable since the Sens would be dealing one defenceman for another. And as I mentioned, Doughty would more than make up for any lost production by dealing Karlsson. Rundblad would just be another bullet in the chamber for the Sens.

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Old
09-20-2011, 11:59 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Doughty's point totals went down last year, but the year before - in his age 20 season - he put up 59 points. His offensive upside is equal to Karlsson's and one could argue he may have more offensive potential due to his ability to go coast-to-coast. His hockey sense is also off the charts.

So the team wouldn't be losing any - and could actually be gaining - offence by dealing Karlsson for Doughty, and Doughty represents a massive upgrade defensively.

Regarding Rundblad, yes, his addition doesn't make Karlsson expendable since the Sens would be dealing one defenceman for another. And as I mentioned, Doughty would more than make up for any lost production by dealing Karlsson. Rundblad would just be another bullet in the chamber for the Sens.
Yes, but the deal involved cowen aswell...(or atleast one did). I see karlsson as being a tad better offensively, and cowen being a tad better defensively with doughty being the best overall.

I think of how we can almost always have one of cowen and karlsson on the ice for the whole game. When we need offense, karlsson will be on. When we need to protect the lead, cowen will be on almost all the time.

I see it dumb to trade BOTH while ADDING a 1st...or michalek or whatever was said.

I'd rather have more good players than 1 better player with crap.

We're finally getting several blue chip prospects. I think it would be very ill advised to trade 3 blue chippers for 1 ultra blue chip(though karlsson/doughty are passed the prospect stage). This trade would thin out our star power and concentrate.

If i made value on a scale of 100 i would put:

doughty:90-95
Karlsson:75
Cowen: 65
1st: 60-70 (depending where it ends up)

having doughty's star power of 90-95 isn't worth losing 75+65+60or70

Going back to my offer which i believ value wise would be

doughty:90-95
for
karlsson:75
foligno:40
2nd-3rd:25-40


I know quality=/=quantity but when you're talking about karlsson/cowen/1st/michalek etc. they're all quality pieces.

This may not make sense to you, but that's how i see it.

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Old
09-20-2011, 12:06 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Yes, but the deal involved cowen aswell...(or atleast one did). I see karlsson as being a tad better offensively, and cowen being a tad better defensively with doughty being the best overall.

I think of how we can almost always have one of cowen and karlsson on the ice for the whole game. When we need offense, karlsson will be on. When we need to protect the lead, cowen will be on almost all the time.

I see it dumb to trade BOTH while ADDING a 1st...or michalek or whatever was said.

I'd rather have more good players than 1 better player with crap.

We're finally getting several blue chip prospects. I think it would be very ill advised to trade 3 blue chippers for 1 ultra blue chip(though karlsson/doughty are passed the prospect stage). This trade would thin out our star power and concentrate.

If i made value on a scale of 100 i would put:

doughty:90-95
Karlsson:75
Cowen: 65
1st: 60-70 (depending where it ends up)

having doughty's star power of 90-95 isn't worth losing 75+65+60or70

Going back to my offer which i believ value wise would be

doughty:90-95
for
karlsson:75
foligno:40
2nd-3rd:25-40


I know quality=/=quantity but when you're talking about karlsson/cowen/1st/michalek etc. they're all quality pieces.

This may not make sense to you, but that's how i see it.
I agree with you - I wouldn't deal both Karlsson and Cowen for Doughty. IMO, that would be a slight overpayment, and then add either Michalek or another prospect/player/draft pick and that would be a big overpayment.

Karlsson, Michalek, a veteran defenceman (e.g., Kuba, Gonchar) to balance out salaries, and maybe a draft pick would be as far as I would go.

Could also swap Michalek for Foligno if the Kings are concerned about Michalek's long-term health. Foligno could be a decent replacement for the loss of Simmonds in the off-season.

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Old
09-20-2011, 02:19 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xking23 View Post
I really hope you aren't trying to say Karlsson=Gardiner. I mean I'll assume you watched the game, and Karlsson ran the game, out skating the Leafs whenever he touched the puck. Karlsson was a force and the only reason Ottawa had as many chances as they did.

And once again if Karlsson=Gardiner than Doughty=Marc-Andre Bergeron, Lidstrom=Kuba, Keith=Campoli.. you get the drift. Just because they play a similar style does not mean anything (and saying anyone minus Keith plays the same style as Karlsson is a stretch).
OK lets clear up the fact that I'm not saying Karlsson isn't awesome offensively and I wasn't saying Gardiner is anywhere close to Karlsson but that simply the same type of player. Now the Sens fans are talking about Karlsson as tho he puts up points and controls a game like Crosby but that is not how it is. So if Karlsson is sooo good offensively for a D-man should he not finish with the most points as a D-man and be at least 10-15 pts ahead of 2nd?? I don't think its going to happen tho. Karlsson was 17th in D scoring last year and guys like Liles, kaberle and Wiz all beat him. Then you have Shattenkirk who got 2 less points in 3 less games and with an avg ice time of 19:50 compaired to Karlsson's 23:30. What really impressed me about Shattenkirk is his shooting percentage at 8.33 . Plus his name is just awesome especially if your not a fan of the original Star Trek series ShattenKirk= "Shat" on "Kirk" I know I know I'm childish.

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Old
09-20-2011, 02:25 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
OK lets clear up the fact that I'm not saying Karlsson isn't awesome offensively and I wasn't saying Gardiner is anywhere close to Karlsson but that simply the same type of player. Now the Sens fans are talking about Karlsson as tho he puts up points and controls a game like Crosby but that is not how it is. So if Karlsson is sooo good offensively for a D-man should he not finish with the most points as a D-man and be at least 10-15 pts ahead of 2nd?? I don't think its going to happen tho. Karlsson was 17th in D scoring last year and guys like Liles, kaberle and Wiz all beat him. Then you have Shattenkirk who got 2 less points in 3 less games and with an avg ice time of 19:50 compaired to Karlsson's 23:30. What really impressed me about Shattenkirk is his shooting percentage at 8.33 . Plus his name is just awesome especially if your not a fan of the original Star Trek series ShattenKirk= "Shat" on "Kirk" I know I know I'm childish.

Technically, MAB is the same kind of player as Karlsson but one is a valuable commodity and the other is a piece of crap, PP specialist. All offensive dmen are not created equal. Karlsson's skating and vision are what make him a future top 2 dman.

As for the Shattenkirk comparison (I giggled btw), Shattenkirk's a year older and he also played on a better team, oh, and he's also pretty awesome. Not sure what other Sens fans have been saying but Karlsson's a top young dman, not the top offensive dman.

Not sure what others have been offering but in a deal for Doughty, I'd try to package Karlsson, a forward of LA's choice (Not Spezza), and Noesen for Doughty. Helps LA now, helps LA later and Ottawa gets the next Wade Redden. Wait, what?

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Old
09-20-2011, 06:05 PM
  #115
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Don't know why you guys are still arguing with bobbyt911 when he tried to compare Gardiner and such to Karlsson.

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Old
09-20-2011, 07:16 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Bolded in first post, trying to show that offensive D men are a dime a dozen


Find me a HALF a dozen 20 year old D-men who have scored 45 points as a 20 year old since 2000.

I'll check in with you later.

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Old
09-20-2011, 07:24 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Silfverberger View Post


Find me a HALF a dozen 20 year old D-men who have scored 45 points as a 20 year old since 2000.

I'll check in with you later.
FYI.... it has happened exactly 3 times in the last 10 NHL seasons that a defenseman aged 20 or under has scored as many points as Karlsson did last year.

When you considered that he was on the league's 2nd lowest scoring squad it makes him something more than a dime a dozen.

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Old
09-20-2011, 07:27 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silfverberger View Post
FYI.... it has happened exactly 3 times in the last 10 NHL seasons that a defenseman aged 20 or under has scored as many points as Karlsson did last year.

When you considered that he was on the league's 2nd lowest scoring squad it makes him something more than a dime a dozen.
he also missed the last 7-8 games last year as well, had he been playing....he would have hit 50.

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