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What if Gáborík played in the dead puck era?

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09-17-2011, 02:52 PM
  #1
ThrashersfanSVK
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What if Gáborík played in the dead puck era?

I hope nobody will argue with me when I say Gáborík is a player who doesn't need the help from his teammates to score a goal. Also I hope nobody will argue with me when I say Gáborík's defense is not so good. In many ways, he looks like the copy of Pavel Bure. But still he's nowhere near the Bure's number. Could it be because he didn't play in dead puck era unlike Bure?

Dead puck era doesn't mean just the defense. For many players it meant that they didn't have to think about defense. One of those players is Bure. In Florida Bure didn't have any defense responsibilities, the defense was the job for Bure's linemates. Also Bure didn't have any skilled linemates. He was able to score a goal without any help (such as Gáborík, just accelerate and then put the puck into the net). Maybe that was the reason why he played sometimes 30+ min per game and why he was moved from the one line to the other.

Nowadays, it is little bit different. Each player has to be good at defense. Everybody has any defensive responsibility. Therefore I'm thinking how Gáborík would look if he played in the dead puck era.

Discuss.

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09-17-2011, 03:01 PM
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begbeee
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I dont agree they didnt have to play defense, though this could make a sense.
During dead puck era there were some D-men whose only skill was just that they were big. Gaborik type of player would make them look like slugs.
Actually Gaborik played significant time during DPE and considering his age, he did pretty well.

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09-17-2011, 03:02 PM
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JaysCyYoung
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Gaborik DID play in the Dead Puck Era though. Four seasons in fact: 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03, and 2003-04.

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09-17-2011, 03:09 PM
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That's true but you can't say he played in DPE during his prime. At the end of 03-04 season he was 22. Are you sure that I should take into the account those 4 seasons? That is not so representative sample.

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09-17-2011, 03:10 PM
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JaysCyYoung
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Four seasons is actually a pretty significant sample size in most cases, especially for elite forwards who have a tendency to peak at much younger ages than their counterparts in goal and on defence.

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09-17-2011, 03:13 PM
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I agree with you that forwards have usually have their prime earlier than d-men or goalies, but NOBODY out of elite forwards has his prime at the age of 22, if the player is not called Jimmy Carson.

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09-17-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashersfanSVK View Post
I agree with you that forwards have usually have their prime earlier than d-men or goalies, but NOBODY out of elite forwards has his prime at the age of 22, if the player is not called Jimmy Carson.

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09-17-2011, 03:17 PM
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Well, we have a few season where Gaborik did play in the DPE. He scored a total of 96g in 295 games, or .32 gpg. Post lockout, Gaborik has 187g in 345 games, a .54 gpg. Pre-lockout, he was ages 19-22, post lockout, ages 24-29. Now, its not crazy to think that Gaborik would have been able to match his .54 gpg if his prime came during the DPE, given the natural maturation process; however, that only comes out to 44 goals per 82 games. I find it hard to believe that he would be any better during the DPE than he is now. He might be better relative to the league, but in an absolute numbers sense, I think he'd have pretty similar stats, at best.

Another thing, Gaborik would have still been playing for the Lemaire coached Wild, which would negate any notion of eschewing defensive play, in favor of more goals. Now, if he was in a situation similar to Bure's where defense almost wasn't an option, then I could see him popping 50 a couple of time, but that's really independent of era. I mean, scoring more by playing less defense is by no means exclusively a DPE phenomenon.


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09-17-2011, 03:20 PM
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Are you trying to tell me he will never be better than he was when he was 22? I'd love to have your crystal ball.

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09-17-2011, 03:28 PM
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I don't understand the statement that "everyone has to play defense now; in the dead puck era they didn't."

Just because Bure was allowed to cherrypick, doesn't mean that everyone did. The puck was dead for a reason.

To me, a more interesting question would be how Gaborik would have played if he wasn't coached by Jacques Lemaire.

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09-17-2011, 03:32 PM
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Gaborik is a very, very soft, injury prone player. He'd get manhandled out there.

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09-17-2011, 03:34 PM
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I would say he means that some players with really great offensive talent werent restricted by their coach same way as an average star. Think about players like Lemieux, Jagr, Selanne, Kariya and Bure. I woud say I just have named them all, LOL.

EDIT: When overall level of skating during DPE was lower than i.e. nowadays, we can assume player with such exceptional skating and goal scoring skill wouldnt be forced to play defense-first system. It would be waste of a talent. Players should be used the propper way.

EDIT #2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Gaborik is a very, very soft, injury prone player. He'd get manhandled out there.
Uhm, he played seasons of 71, 78 and 81 games during DPE, the level which Rangers would kill for. Didnt look like manhandled player.


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09-17-2011, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Uhm, he played seasons of 71, 78 and 81 games during DPE, the level which Rangers would kill for. Didnt look like manhandled player.
That was not "real" DPE.

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09-17-2011, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
EDIT #2:
Uhm, he played seasons of 71, 78 and 81 games during DPE, the level which Rangers would kill for. Didnt look like manhandled player.
One could make an easy argument that once the injuries started, they had a snowballing effect. This would have been potentially exacerbated by the clutch and grab style of the DPE. Obviously, this is pure speculation, but it is by no means a stretch.

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09-17-2011, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashersfanSVK View Post
Are you trying to tell me he will never be better than he was when he was 22? I'd love to have your crystal ball.
I really doubt Ovechkin has much upside left. He certainly hasn't demonstrated it recently. Don't expect him to ever score 65 goals again. We can't even be certain that he'll score 40 next year.

Lemieux (career high at 23)
Gretzky (92 goals and 212 points at 21, career high is only 3 points more)
Yzerman (career high at 23)
Richard (career high at 23)
Orr (career high at 21)
Bure (career high at 21)
Selanne (career high at 22)
Jagr (first Art Ross at 22)
Trottier (career high at 22)
Bourque (career high at 23)
Forsberg (career high at 22)
Hawerchuk (career high at 21)
Kariya (career high at 21)
Lindros (his only Art Ross at 21)
Ovechkin (career high at 22, barely 80 points at 25)
Howe (first Art Ross at 22)
Crosby (career high at 19... we'll see what happens here)

You can argue about whether their career high season was actually their best, but the point is most elite players are winning awards, having their most memorable seasons and at or very near their peak production at 22, so it's actually pretty common for these guys to peak this early.

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09-17-2011, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
That was not "real" DPE.
The goals-per-game during those seasons was like 5.3 or even lower. Doesn't get much deader than that. He was playing when goal-scoring reached its lowest point since the 50's

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09-18-2011, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashersfanSVK View Post
That's true but you can't say he played in DPE during his prime. At the end of 03-04 season he was 22. Are you sure that I should take into the account those 4 seasons? That is not so representative sample.
Gaborik was 3rd in goals from 01-04 for players aged 18-23 during that time period. 13th in GPG

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

from 18-21 years he is 2nd and 7th in those totals

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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09-18-2011, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't understand the statement that "everyone has to play defense now; in the dead puck era they didn't."

Just because Bure was allowed to cherrypick, doesn't mean that everyone did. The puck was dead for a reason.

To me, a more interesting question would be how Gaborik would have played if he wasn't coached by Jacques Lemaire.
I agree with a different coach and different era, ie early 80's he would have scored at a better clip.

This isn't directed at you but the puck was never dead.

It was the "clutch and grab" era, as well as the "incredibly increasing goalie equipment" era and hockey fans should stop stealing ideas from baseball, especially when it doesn't apply.

For the record the baseball was tampered with and the "dead ball" era actually indicates what happened in baseball.

The term "dead puck era" is both lazy and inaccurate in the description of why offense went down during the time period it is used for.

Just a pet peeve rant is over.

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09-18-2011, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I really doubt Ovechkin has much upside left. He certainly hasn't demonstrated it recently. Don't expect him to ever score 65 goals again. We can't even be certain that he'll score 40 next year.

Lemieux (career high at 23)
Gretzky (92 goals and 212 points at 21, career high is only 3 points more)
Yzerman (career high at 23)
Richard (career high at 23)
Orr (career high at 21)
Bure (career high at 21)
Selanne (career high at 22)
Jagr (first Art Ross at 22)
Trottier (career high at 22)
Bourque (career high at 23)
Forsberg (career high at 22)
Hawerchuk (career high at 21)
Kariya (career high at 21)
Lindros (his only Art Ross at 21)
Ovechkin (career high at 22, barely 80 points at 25)
Howe (first Art Ross at 22)
Crosby (career high at 19... we'll see what happens here)

You can argue about whether their career high season was actually their best, but the point is most elite players are winning awards, having their most memorable seasons and at or very near their peak production at 22, so it's actually pretty common for these guys to peak this early.
Dionne career high in points age 28
Lafluer points 25, goals 26
Bobby Clarke points 26
Hank Sedin points 29
Daniel Sedin points 30
Corey Perry points and goals 25..so far
St. Louis Hart 28, points 31
Vinny Lecavlier points 26
Doug gilmour points 29

so now we have 2 lists that don't tell us very much overall IMO.

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09-18-2011, 03:22 AM
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I think he'd be the same type of player. Not overly responsible on the defensive end. Not very good in the postseason. Injury prone. Never a top 10 player in the game (top 15?). Soft. Not much would change.

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09-18-2011, 04:51 AM
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pick any era, his lower body would still be made of glass.

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Old
09-18-2011, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Dionne career high in points age 28
Lafluer points 25, goals 26
Bobby Clarke points 26
Hank Sedin points 29
Daniel Sedin points 30
Corey Perry points and goals 25..so far
St. Louis Hart 28, points 31
Vinny Lecavlier points 26
Doug gilmour points 29

so now we have 2 lists that don't tell us very much overall IMO.
I think revolverjgw had points.
Anyway, Phil Esposito was 28 during his best scoring season.

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09-18-2011, 02:02 PM
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I approve, sir.

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09-18-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I agree with a different coach and different era, ie early 80's he would have scored at a better clip.

This isn't directed at you but the puck was never dead.

It was the "clutch and grab" era, as well as the "incredibly increasing goalie equipment" era and hockey fans should stop stealing ideas from baseball, especially when it doesn't apply.

For the record the baseball was tampered with and the "dead ball" era actually indicates what happened in baseball.

The term "dead puck era" is both lazy and inaccurate in the description of why offense went down during the time period it is used for.

Just a pet peeve rant is over.
Wasn't the puck modified by Fox so they could do their puck-tracker or whatever the heck it was called? Maybe that it explains it.

Seriously though, isn't it a lot easier to say "DPE" than "the era of clutch and grab, when penalties were rarely enforced and the goalies started to look like the Michelin man, while teams put increased emphasis on size, strength and defensive strategy, etc."

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09-19-2011, 10:46 PM
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He's score 10 less points and 5-10 less goals a year....just like verybody.

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