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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part IV

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01-03-2012, 05:21 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by angrymnky View Post
Maybe team chemistry gets disrupted by him parachuting in or maybe things just don't go so smoothly.
Maybe our second round pick would turn out to be a valuable player.

What's the best vs worst realistic scenario? Best - Teemu helps us win a round or two and our pick we give up wouldn't have been for a good player. Teemu isn't going to propel this team to a cup win.
Worst - Teemu doesn't help much or get injured and our second rounder would have been a great top 6 player.

Why give up the potential of drafting a great player for the certainty of a player that won't do anything for this club after the playoffs.
This line made me chuckle. A second round draft pick, especially where we would be picking (probably around 45) is by no means a slam dunk NHL player. When you start getting into the mid and late 2nd round your chances of getting an impactful NHL'er becomes less and less.

As I said in the speculation thread, the sky is the limit if this team makes the playoffs, ESPECIALLY if we end up winning our division. Anything can happen. Lots of teams have 'Cinderella'ed' thier way into the Conference finals and yes, even to the Stanley Cup. They did it with great goaltending and a deep defense corps that bought into a system and played together (remind you of any team you know?). Again, I am not delusional enough to think that this is a slam dunk for the Jets, but you can't deny it is a distinct possibility with this team, especially with this crowd behind them.

IF we are headed towards a division win, risking a second round draft pick for Teemu Selanne is an absolute no brainer:

The memories he will create
The extra revenue he will help generate
The added scoring we would desperately need in a playoff run.

This is a veteran, experienced playoff performer who still performs at a high level. What he could do for us in a playoff series is tangible.

Do you think if you asked Oilers management if, for a 2nd round draft pick, they would give back the SCF run of 2006, do you think they would even consider it?

You have to be responsible and build through the draft but you cannot pass up great opportunities to stick to a rule that should not be black and white. If we were talking a top 5 pick or something, then of course.

There comes a point when it has to be about winning, and not building. This is a situation where it should be about winning. If we ended up as a top 3 seed, that would mean home ice advantage for at least 1 round, playing a weaker team. You have to go for it.

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01-03-2012, 05:32 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by DinoNeils View Post
Not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic or not..
It was ment in 2 ways, ppl dumb enough to risk the future and a wish to see no more than 14 of these thread per week.....

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01-03-2012, 06:07 PM
  #978
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I really believe that Teemu has too much respect for the Ducks to put them in a position where he makes them trade him and force them to trade him to only one team, leaving them with no leverage.

In any case, it's going to cost more than just a second and a fringe player/prospect. Just look at the trade board thread, no one there believes that a minimal package would do it. That makes it not worth it to me. Also, you have to remember that management doesn't gain anything from nostalgia (except for some jersey sales, which they only get a part of anyway). Seats are already filled, so no revenue gained there.

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01-03-2012, 08:07 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by atl thrasher344 View Post
I really believe that Teemu has too much respect for the Ducks to put them in a position where he makes them trade him and force them to trade him to only one team, leaving them with no leverage.

In any case, it's going to cost more than just a second and a fringe player/prospect. Just look at the trade board thread, no one there believes that a minimal package would do it. That makes it not worth it to me. Also, you have to remember that management doesn't gain anything from nostalgia (except for some jersey sales, which they only get a part of anyway). Seats are already filled, so no revenue gained there.
So you don't think it's possible that:

A> Teemu helps this team get into the playoffs (at least 2 playoff games)
B> He helps us win a game in the playoffs (potentially nets us another playoff game)

Do you know how much money one playoff game would generate for this franchise?


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01-03-2012, 08:10 PM
  #980
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It was ment in 2 ways, ppl dumb enough to risk the future and a wish to see no more than 14 of these thread per week.....
I see, so the people who want the Jets to do this deal are dumb. The ones who have taken the time to put forth a well thought out argument on these boards as to why it's a good idea, so that it could be discussed. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Before just posting useless spam you might consider actually contributing to the discussion or moving along.

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01-03-2012, 08:51 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
So you don't think it's possible that:

A> Teemu helps this team get into the playoffs (at least 2 playoff games)
B> He helps us win a game in the playoffs (potentially nets us another playoff game)

Do you know how much money one playoff game would generate for this franchise?
Why would Selanne want to come to this team unless it was a given that we were making the playoffs, and if we are definitely making the playoffs, then who knows how many we can win with or without him?

Anyways, that was just a footnote to my post.

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01-04-2012, 01:21 AM
  #982
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This line made me chuckle. A second round draft pick, especially where we would be picking (probably around 45) is by no means a slam dunk NHL player. When you start getting into the mid and late 2nd round your chances of getting an impactful NHL'er becomes less and less.
Everyone knows this. I just think the potential - the chance of getting a good player is not worth Teemu for a playoff run this year. I see no long term benefit.

But I get it, that's because I see the team doing good for a round or two and then goodbye Teemu, goodbye draft pick and whatever else we have to give up. You think they can make a lot of noise in the playoffs, maybe even a cup run. That would be amazing. It would be worth it in that case, I can't argue that. We'll see where we are at the end of the year.

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01-04-2012, 09:03 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
This is a veteran, experienced playoff performer who still performs at a high level. What he could do for us in a playoff series is tangible.

Do you think if you asked Oilers management if, for a 2nd round draft pick, they would give back the SCF run of 2006, do you think they would even consider it?

You have to be responsible and build through the draft but you cannot pass up great opportunities to stick to a rule that should not be black and white. If we were talking a top 5 pick or something, then of course.

There comes a point when it has to be about winning, and not building. This is a situation where it should be about winning. If we ended up as a top 3 seed, that would mean home ice advantage for at least 1 round, playing a weaker team. You have to go for it.
Well said.

The goal of any franchise is to go deep into the playoffs and win a cup; not to build through the draft and always have te cupboard filled with could be players.

Trading a prospect and a pick with less than a 25% chance of making the bigs for a veteran to help in the playoffs is a no brainer; you do it.

Keeping the cupboard full of prospects is more about asset management and scouting than anything else. If we have an expring contract whose role can be filled by others or isn't likely to resign, you deal him.

Look at the succesfull franchises out there; the Detroits, Philadelphias and Pittsburghs; these teams are consitently succesfull due in large part to asset mangement, and not having a stock pile of picks. You could argue that players want to play in these markets so its easy for them to attract talent. However, the fact is that players want to play for these franchises because they are winners.

I'm not saying that the Jets need Selanne to be a winner. But if the teams surrounds itselves with winners, we will be a winning franchise and Selanne is no doubt a winner.

My argument is more about bringing in guys who know how to win if we are in position to make the playoffs; if that guy is Samuel Pahlsson, Ryan Smyth, Travis Moen, Jerome Iginla, Brenden Morrow, John Madden or anybody with a winning pedigree in the NHL or international level, I say bring him in if he fills a void and is priced right.

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01-04-2012, 09:17 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
There comes a point when it has to be about winning, and not building. This is a situation where it should be about winning. If we ended up as a top 3 seed, that would mean home ice advantage for at least 1 round, playing a weaker team. You have to go for it.
I'm with you completely. If the Jets are challenging strong for a playoff spot, I'd like to see management take that seriously, take some calculated risks, pick up what we need to make us better for a run, and thus send the message that we are committed to winning and that we believe we can have playoff success. That's an important statement to make to the league, to the fans -- and to the team itself, IMO.

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01-04-2012, 09:23 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by angrymnky View Post
Everyone knows this. I just think the potential - the chance of getting a good player is not worth Teemu for a playoff run this year. I see no long term benefit.

But I get it, that's because I see the team doing good for a round or two and then goodbye Teemu, goodbye draft pick and whatever else we have to give up. You think they can make a lot of noise in the playoffs, maybe even a cup run. That would be amazing. It would be worth it in that case, I can't argue that. We'll see where we are at the end of the year.
First off, I do respect your opinion, but there is more to a trade like this than just picks, a player and a couple playoff rounds.

Not sure if everyone here plays hockey, but think about the games that you play at the Highlander, Iceplex or whatever league you are in. You are short a guy and somebody brings out a some stud who dominated junior and is always good for three goals and couple helpers a game. You want to play better around him; you want to show that you belong on the ice with a guy like that. You pay attention to the things he does on the ice and he makes you want to be better.

Now that example is just beer league hockey, playing Junior we had solid players join us for a playoff push and I watced them off the ice, in practice, in the gym and on the bus. I wanted to be better; I saw the example of what it took to take the next step; it made me a better player.

If the effect of being arround better players is amplified from beer leagues to Junior leagues, imagine how it is amplified from junior to the NHL. Imagine our young core coming in everyday for four months and seeing how a true professional, a legitimate HHOFer, applies his trade. If you don't think the growth they would experience is worth a second +, then I don't know what else to say.

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01-04-2012, 09:36 AM
  #986
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An alternate view to the above posts is that apparently some of you have had your outlook skewed by a month of home game wins. Will you still feel the same way if the Jets only win two or three games in January?

The Jets have been scoring by committee and playing solid defense. This has allowed cover for the fact that this team has a solid young core but is also one extremely lacking in any substantive depth up front. Detroit, Boston, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, etc got to where they currently are by drafting solidly for a number of years and then managing and leveraging those assets accordingly. It seems to me as if a few of you wish to skip a step in the process.

The Jets have already stated on numerous occasions that they've a long term plan to build around the current team via the draft, that they will be a mid-cap team while building, and will only spend when a serious cup run is in sight. I personally hope they stick with that long term plan and don't deviate, especially on year one of the team in Winnipeg. If they should make the playoffs this season, then I hope it is done with the players that brought them to the dance and not with a rental or two that come at any future cost.

Your own mileage may vary though, apparently.

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01-04-2012, 09:46 AM
  #987
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Dino, I hear what you are saying and I agree in theory. If you make your team a winner, you have a better chance of attracting good players.

I think this is an interesting discussion, because it's not so cut and dried. There are so many layers to consider.

Would I want to have Selanne here for a playoff run if we are in it? Of course! Does it make sense from an organizational standpoint? Maybe??

One thing to consider is, if we are talking about 2nd round picks or better, and good prospects is, is that our prospect pool is terrible. Actually, one of the worst in the league. After Schiefele, we have a guy would might be a 3rd line energy player (Klingberg), a checking centre (Cormier), and a D man who is having problems defensively in the AHL (Postma).

We are a franchise that needs to build through the draft because we know we are not A) a sexy destination for top UFA's, and B) not going to spend max dollars and throw huge contracts to UFA's.

So we have a situation where we need to A) use the draft in order to be successful, B) have a terrible prospect pool, but C) want to spend picks and what little prospects we have on a rental (no matter how special).

If we had a prospect pool like Florida, or Edmonton, I would be a lot more comfortable with the idea. Considering that we don't have anywhere near the depth that those orgs have, losing what little we have is kind of scary.

Especially since that is the way we need to build. The reason what half the league can spend a pick or a prospect on rentals is because you have 16 teams that are within 4 million of the cap. The teams can "fix" a mistake or two (bad draft pick, lose picks for rentals, etc), through UFA's. We can't do that. So we can potentially do more damage to our team chasing after rentals. We just can't go out and sign the top UFA's the following summer to make up for our losses.

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01-04-2012, 11:29 AM
  #988
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I am not on board with trading picks/prospects for a rental just yet. This team was left with little depth organizational wise from the previous manangement.

They are better off standing pat making the playoffs this year and seeing how their youngsters react. Keep their draft picks and prospects and add a FA or 2 this summer instead

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01-04-2012, 11:33 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
An alternate view to the above posts is that apparently some of you have had your outlook skewed by a month of home game wins. Will you still feel the same way if the Jets only win two or three games in January?
Well, I think as stated for some of us that opinion is conditional on the Jets being in a strong position for a playoff push. If they only win a couple of games in January, then chances are they wouldn't be in a very strong position at all come trade deadline so the discussion is sort of moot.

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01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
An alternate view to the above posts is that apparently some of you have had your outlook skewed by a month of home game wins. Will you still feel the same way if the Jets only win two or three games in January?

The Jets have been scoring by committee and playing solid defense. This has allowed cover for the fact that this team has a solid young core but is also one extremely lacking in any substantive depth up front. Detroit, Boston, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, etc got to where they currently are by drafting solidly for a number of years and then managing and leveraging those assets accordingly. It seems to me as if a few of you wish to skip a step in the process.

The Jets have already stated on numerous occasions that they've a long term plan to build around the current team via the draft, that they will be a mid-cap team while building, and will only spend when a serious cup run is in sight. I personally hope they stick with that long term plan and don't deviate, especially on year one of the team in Winnipeg. If they should make the playoffs this season, then I hope it is done with the players that brought them to the dance and not with a rental or two that come at any future cost.

Your own mileage may vary though, apparently.
I've said all along, this really depends where the Jets are when the time comes. If they are falling out of the playoff picture, then, no you don't do it.

However if they are in the hunt, battling and have a good chance to make the post season or better yet, a top 3 seed, then you have to go for it.

Some people put far more value on a second rounder than others.

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01-04-2012, 11:39 AM
  #991
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Well, I think as stated for some of us that opinion is conditional on the Jets being in a strong position for a playoff push. If they only win a couple of games in January, then chances are they wouldn't be in a very strong position at all come trade deadline so the discussion is sort of moot.
The point being is that teams don't pay rental prices for playoff pushes, they pay them for Cup races. There is a substantive difference there.

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01-04-2012, 11:43 AM
  #992
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The point being is that teams don't pay rental prices for playoff pushes, they pay them for Cup races. There is a substantive difference there.
Right, but my opinion is that if we look like we're going to be going to the playoffs strong, then we look straight to the top, treat it as a Cup race and give ourselves the best chance to succeed. I support the long-term plan too, but at the end of the day I want to see some balance between the long-term plan and responding to situations of the present.

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01-04-2012, 11:44 AM
  #993
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Some people put far more value on a second rounder than others.
I get the meme about second rounders, that few make it in the league, etc. The difference between being good and being great though is finding that occasional diamond in the rough in rounds two and later. That has been Detroit's strength over the years, and has been the difference maker for them, they find and then develop them.

You have to take the chance to get the gain, and you won't if you trade away those opportunities to find a diamond. People who assign a low value toward assets get exactly what they deserve.

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01-04-2012, 11:50 AM
  #994
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The point being is that teams don't pay rental prices for playoff pushes, they pay them for Cup races. There is a substantive difference there.
So, here's a question for you.

Jets have player A with an expiring contract. Player A could fetch the Jets a 2nd round draft pick. The Jets are looking as if they will make the playoffs and may even win a round.

Do the Jets deal that player at the deadline, even if he is an important part of the team?

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01-04-2012, 11:50 AM
  #995
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I get the meme about second rounders, that few make it in the league, etc. The difference between being good and being great though is finding that occasional diamond in the rough in rounds two and later. That has been Detroit's strength over the years, and has been the difference maker for them, they find and then develop them.

You have to take the chance to get the gain, and you won't if you trade away those opportunities to find a diamond. People who assign a low value toward assets get exactly what they deserve.
It's not a meme, it's a fact.

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01-04-2012, 11:53 AM
  #996
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Right, but my opinion is that if we look like we're going to be going to the playoffs strong, then we look straight to the top, treat it as a Cup race and give ourselves the best chance to succeed. I support the long-term plan too, but at the end of the day I want to see some balance between the long-term plan and responding to situations of the present.
That is my point as well. It is good to have a plan, and be responsible, but you need to assess the situation and deviate from the plan when it makes sense.

This team is IMHO ahead of where we, and even the org. thought it would be. We have seen a correction of development and performance from players to where they could and should be. It's not smoke and mirrors, it's players playing to their potential. I think people have to re adjust their thinking of this team from a rebuilding one to one that is a developing strong team.

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01-04-2012, 11:56 AM
  #997
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So, here's a question for you.

Jets have player A with an expiring contract. Player A could fetch the Jets a 2nd round draft pick. The Jets are looking as if they will make the playoffs and may even win a round.

Do the Jets deal that player at the deadline, even if he is an important part of the team?
Well, the answer to that is entirely dependent upon your future expectations versus the current assets you have in house. It also depends upon whether or not you think you can sign that player, and whether or not you want to. It is too subjective to reply to.

Do you believe it a current likelihood that the Jets will make the playoffs? I ask that because I'm more 50/50 regarding that subject and as such that colors my response. I'd build assets at present if forced to make the decision though.

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01-04-2012, 11:58 AM
  #998
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It's not a meme, it's a fact.
It is also a fact that Detroit baked their cake with those sort of players.

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01-04-2012, 11:58 AM
  #999
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The point being is that teams don't pay rental prices for playoff pushes, they pay them for Cup races. There is a substantive difference there.
I partially agree to that. But even so, many potentially playoff bound teams will make a move or two in order to improve their team (goal: try to) and make the playoffs and then who knows what.

I think Jet will agree here, but look at the 2006 Oilers who ended up making the playoffs in the 8th spot. They traded Reasoner, Stastny and a 2nd for Samsonov on March 9th, 2006, trade deadline day.

The day before the 2006 trade deadline, on March 8th, Edmonton traded a 1st round selection in 2006 and a conditional 3rd round selection in 2006 to Minnesota for Roloson.

Now, I know that circumstances do indeed play a role in what a team can give up, and it also depends on what direction the team is headed and what kind of shape they are in going forward. With us, I understand that we have a shallow prospect pool, so even giving a 2nd round pick away may not be wise in managements eyes.

With that being said, I think we'll just have to see how this plays out. Whether it be Selanne or someone else, I believe management will possibly make a move or two near the deadline if we're in playoff contention. Maybe not a big one (Selanne), but perhaps something. Then again, in my opinion we've got pretty decent depth from top to bottom, not saying it's the best depth/talent, but we're built pretty well in my opinion, so perhaps management will be happy to give this team and every guy who's played this season the opportunity to stick together and do something.

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01-04-2012, 12:02 PM
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Then again, in my opinion we've got pretty decent depth from top to bottom, not saying it's the best depth/talent, but we're built pretty well in my opinion, so perhaps management will be happy to give this team and every guy who's played this season the opportunity to stick together and do something.
The NHL roster has fair depth. We've little in the futures pool though and that is the point. Our prospect depth is severely lacking. The Jets identified that as a weakness and that is indeed likely why they plan to build via the draft.

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