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09-05-2011, 10:51 AM
  #1
JLP
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All purpose 'Does fighting belong in the NHL?' thread

Basically argues the three enforcers' deaths this summer warrants another look at fighting, that it doesn't belong in the NHL.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...724/story.html

Please discuss the article -- no point turning this into a general critique of Jack Todd

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Old
09-05-2011, 11:10 AM
  #2
VirginiaMtlExpat
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To do that would call for moral qualities and leadership abilities that the NHL management does not possess. Jim Peplinski is saying the same thing in the Globe and Mail.

I have been saying it for years. Fact is, the NHL does not care about players that much. It is reactive, rather than proactive, or else it would do a lot more to prevent injuries, including boards with some elastic properties, mandatory face-guards and mouthpieces to prevent concussions by facial trauma, soft rather than weaponized pads that merely absorb shocks, real legislation that eliminates head shots outright, and rethinking the size of the ice.

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09-05-2011, 11:12 AM
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Bill McNeal
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I support the idea of the NHL investigating the culture of fighting and the effects it has on the brain, and then if necessary they can act accordingly. The 3 deaths are suspicious, but unless you can find a direct link between them and fighting you'd have a tough time banning something most fans and (more importantly) most players like. If you don't think there's a link, you have nothing to worry about, and if you do think there is then something should surface from an investigation.

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09-05-2011, 11:13 AM
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WhiskeySeven
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The problem with North American media is that everyone gets a level platform - crazies and sane people alike.

Just like Fox News should be taken down a couple of pegs for their lack of quality, neither should Jack Todd articles be posted on Hfboards. He's insane, doesn't know anything about the sport of hockey and his opinions are usually pandering to the lowest common denominator.

So no - I refuse to read his article and I'm annoyed that you'd post it up.

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09-05-2011, 11:13 AM
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KILLger
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I think this is a great idea. They should rule out fighting in UFA, Boxing, Wrestling, too.

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09-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Basically argues the three enforcers' deaths this summer warrants another look at fighting, that it doesn't belong in the NHL.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...724/story.html

Please discuss the article -- no point turning this into a general critique of Jack Todd
Opening the debate on banning fighting is what sells, what stirs the pot.

Taking all factors into consideration is too boring for the common journalist trying to make a living.

So no surprise here.

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09-05-2011, 11:23 AM
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Andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
I think this is a great idea. They should rule out fighting in UFA, Boxing, Wrestling, too.
I forgot that the primary goal of hockey is akin to that of boxing and the others...namely that you must fight your opponent into submission.

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09-05-2011, 11:24 AM
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Of course if you banned fighting then none of those three guys would of seen one minute of NHL ice time as they were not talented enough to play without their enforcing capabilities.

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09-05-2011, 11:26 AM
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So an accidental death, and 2 guys with depression means hockey fighting is killing people?

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09-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I forgot that the primary goal of hockey is akin to that of boxing and the others...namely that you must fight your opponent into submission.
The purpose of this proposed ban is to prevent guys from commiting suicide. It would only be proactive to remove it from these other sports.

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09-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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So an accidental death, and 2 guys with depression means hockey fighting is killing people?
The problem is far more deeply rooted than that.

I would compare this closer to how WWF stars are dying.

These guys have to resort to drugs to sustain their play style. I'm sure pain killers are in heavy favour.

How does a talentless hockey player in the veins of Boogard stick with their club? By fighting. How do you manage to keep yourself in a lineup when all you do is fight guys, game after game? Take drugs.

As far as I know...UFC guys don't fight every other night. They have one fight and then several months of rest.

If a guy like GSP fought every other night, pretty sure that his lifespan would be pretty short.

So the question really is: should fighting be banned because it puts the life of players at risk?

It's a complex situation and I'm sure that banning fighting could save lives but...at the end of the day, it's up to the players and coaches to decide how they want to use their players.

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09-05-2011, 11:38 AM
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I find it hilarious that when a reporter decides to cover something this big, they don't bring in some opinions from the other side? You're in the media, pull aside an enforcer or two and ask them how they feel about fighting, it's importance in the game and the dangers that come with it. Instead, we are fed one-sided bull. Besides the fact that the three deaths in hockey over the past few months have been enforcers, the only other example he provides is that Chara crushed Ivanans' orbital bone, and he could have died.

Hey, I remember once when Gorges took a slapshot to the head and could have died. Should we ban slapshots now? Okay, let's remove fighting. Cheap shots will continue to happen and then in a few years, Jack will be calling for the game to ban hitting altogether.

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09-05-2011, 11:40 AM
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Andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
The purpose of this proposed ban is to prevent guys from commiting suicide. It would only be proactive to remove it from these other sports.
I don't think fighting should be banned because of these deaths, I think fighting should have stricter sanctions(not banning) because I think it has a really insignificant purpose in the grand scheme of things on the ice.

Again, until you can show that hockey is premised on fighting then maybe I'll consider what you are trying to say, but right now it's a stupid argument.


Last edited by Mike8: 09-05-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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Old
09-05-2011, 11:46 AM
  #14
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I was waiting for an arguement like that to surface. It's 3 different cases, 3 different people, and 3 different stories. All 3 of those men had really deep personal issues and unforuntely their demons got the better of them. You can't blame fighting for their deaths, that's not the real issue.

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09-05-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centrehice View Post
So an accidental death, and 2 guys with depression means hockey fighting is killing people?
The "accidental death" is a result of taking very strong painkillers, which becomes necessary when you have to keep playing and fighting to stay on the roster, if you don't do it then you become useless. So you get used to the substance and it becomes a part of the process. I don't want to elaborate too much about substance abuse but you get the general idea.

The reality of an enforcer is a very tough reality with many implications than you might not suspect, including an emotional rollercoster, physical injuries, dangerous medications and cerebral damage that is more and more linked to depression and other mental health issues.

Concussions and brain damage in general are the main issue, but there is a lot more to it when it comes to tough guys.

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09-05-2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
I think this is a great idea. They should rule out fighting in UFA, Boxing, Wrestling, too.


You know those meat heads who only have as an argument against those who want to make hockey safe "GO WATCH GOLF YOU PANSY"?

Well... All I have for you is this wonderful bit of wisdom:

Maybe you should consider sticking to UFC/Boxing.

They're great sports. Where fighting is the main focus. The BEST hockey, whether it's the Olympics or the playoffs, is played without any fights.

Hockey can and SHOULD do without fighting. It's pointless.

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09-05-2011, 11:59 AM
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I don't know about you guys but if I was an NHL player I would be more scared of:

-Hits to the head
-Hits from behind
-Apes like Chara driving my head in the stanchion
-Slap shots to the face/neck
-Skates to the face/neck
-Sticks to the eye
-Etc...

than I would ever be of fighting. Don't wanna fight? Fine, don't fight. Don't like goons that can't play hockey and only fight? Fine, ban them. Wanna make fighting safer by changing the rules? Fine.

But banning fighting completely would be dumb. I'd rather see a guy take out his frustration on another player by pounding his face with his fists instead of resorting to dangerous stick work or dangerous hits.

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Old
09-05-2011, 12:01 PM
  #18
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Old
09-05-2011, 12:05 PM
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I find it really disrespectful to these 3 men that people/fans/journalists are using their 3 deaths as a reason to promote an agenda. Each death was different in many ways, they're not likely tied to one another at all.

I favor an investigation to see how we can limit these situations and to be able to put players in the best situation to succeed after hockey or during troubling times, but to call for banning of fighting without any real link between the two is uncalled for.

Fighting is not going anywhere, ever. Get over it.

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09-05-2011, 12:12 PM
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The argument that I never see is the fact that every players in the league has the choice of fighting. You can play all your career without fighting once. Look at Selanne he had his first fight this last season has a 40 years old player, after an HOF carreer. So saying the NHL should ban fighting while it's only the player choice to fight or not is stupid IMO.

In Todd article he say
Quote:
The stress is too much, the constant pain, the accumulated affects of too many punches, too many painkillers, too much alcohol mixed with the painkillers.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...#ixzz1X692wzqZ
While it's true that they are exposed to all this, well first of all it's THEIR choice (should we ban every dangerous sports) and second every player in the NHL are exposed to stress, pain, alot of hits, painkillers and alcohol (hockey players have an history with alcohol lol).


Todd also say that
Quote:
It's not a matter of Dave Schultz knocking out John Van Boxmeer because Van Boxmeer had the impunity to hit Bobby Clarke.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...#ixzz1X69nMsBU
It's also so false, we saw players fighting to protect a teamate often and it can change a game or at least give something fun to see.

Some examples




Two pretty solid moment IMO in each of theses seasons.

Todd is also saying that their are too big and to back up his statement he choose the biggest player in the game... and also forget the fact that all players (especially tough guy) are bigger make up for the change, all balance itself.

He also try to make a correlation between the three guys, their death and the fact they were tough guys (he also don't seem to remember Boogard was an accident) IMO it's making bad use of rationnal thinking. (like saying my cat has four legs, a chair has four legs, so my cat is a chair). Depression is a tough mental disease and not enough known to the population and I don't think their job was the sure thing that has caused this.

He also omit the fact that there is so few players that are hurt in fights, which is also an important argument IMO. NHL has way more important things to look for with headshots.

Can The Gazette ban Jack Todd

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Old
09-05-2011, 12:27 PM
  #21
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Bottom line is that fighting is part of what gives hockey its edge. Fighting is not just some staged NHL theatre, you see fights down in beer league games. It is part of hockey's fabric, something that is a bit old fashioned (like settling disputes with duels), but that kind old school mentality helps makes the sport appealing to many players and fans.

Effete, controlling, poltically correct people who have already neutered so much of our society's vigor with fuzzy effiminate concepts like violence is never a solution, social justice, human rights, etc. Their panty waisted hypocracy will be our undoing, and they cannot stomach a popular sport that involves the occasional fisticuffs.

The bottom line though is that the NHL has millions of reasons to continue allowing fighting: IT IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT. When a fight starts, people get out of their seats and shout/cheer as much as a goal.

Despite what the oh so cultured erudites in the journalistic, academic and political classes may think of it, and let us know what they think of it from the major media platforms they control, the people of hockey let us know otherwise when they cheer pro fights lustily in arenas, on get into little scraps of their own in recreational games of their beer senior leagues. They also go on the internet and create very popular & dedicated websites to the concept like hockeyfights.com and give millions of hits to hockey fight videos on youtube.

So Jack Todd may be able to act all righteous and cultured from his bully pulpit at the Gazette, but millions of hockey fans and players out there who don't have the media access he does, but vote with their actions would clearly disagree. What does Todd even know about the spirit of hockey?


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 09-05-2011 at 04:21 PM. Reason: No need for that.
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Old
09-05-2011, 12:32 PM
  #22
Kirk Muller
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People forget that atheletes, actors, etc are real people too with real life problems. Just because you are well known doesnt make things magically disappear.

We never say a teenager who commits suicide does it because he was troubled and got into many fights and that the fights were the cause.

Wasnt there recently a US Winter Olympic medalist who took his life recently too.

Fighting is not the issue. We should be more looking at the quality of help available to the players when they are in need. And note this isnt a slam against the NHL's current help available, just it needs to be top notch if it isnt.

Using these deaths as an agenda is an insult to these man. There were real derooted issues, and those are the issues that society as a whole has to try and eliminate before using an easy answer for idiots.

You can argue fightings place in the game and need for it but dont use these deaths as one of them

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Old
09-05-2011, 12:36 PM
  #23
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NHL needs to stay put, they're on the right path. Goons don't have their place anymore. They'll be replaced with tough players who can fight and play, like Lucic, for example. Thus meaning their identity on the team isn't to go out and fight, but play the game and when it gets heated, drop the gloves.

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Old
09-05-2011, 12:37 PM
  #24
loudi94
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Give the referee discretion to give a game misconduct to players "staging" a fight. Also eliminating fighting will lead to more of those scrums and gloved punches. Those scrums need to be taken care of. A player has the right to play without being punched in the head. Players should also be penalized heavily for punching an unwilling player in the head. Two willing combatants should also be able to fight if circumstances dictate. In short nothing will change anytime soon.

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Old
09-05-2011, 12:45 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Hey, I remember once when Gorges took a slapshot to the head and could have died. Should we ban slapshots now? Okay, let's remove fighting. Cheap shots will continue to happen and then in a few years, Jack will be calling for the game to ban hitting altogether.
lololol that is so silly I don't even know what to say. A slapshot is not meant to hurt someone, a fight is. Like did you not think that through your head when you wrote it?

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