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All Injury Talk: Markov to rejoin team at the end of Oct? Ryan White out indefinitely

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10-04-2011, 05:31 PM
  #326
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Had you said "second to Plekanec" it was something you could sell based on a 2-way game but #3? No way.

That was a bad trade plain and simple, the Habs would be a better team were the trade reversed.
You can't just look at one year and say Grabovsky is better than Gomez. Prior to last year Grabovsky's career year was 48 points which was equal to Gomez' worst year of his career.

Getting Pateryn and a 2nd for him was a great trade.

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10-04-2011, 06:00 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Had you said "second to Plekanec" it was something you could sell based on a 2-way game but #3? No way.

That was a bad trade plain and simple, the Habs would be a better team were the trade reversed.
Grab needs 2 seasons of babying, in the sense of getting top minutes and and playing the 1st unit PP. You can do that on a none playoff team.

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10-04-2011, 06:54 PM
  #328
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Wild speculation and conspiracy theories are more of your thing.
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Or yours................
The truth, I think, lies somewhere in between the two of you squabbling over whether Markov is more injured than feared, or right on track.

It's obvious nobody expected this bout of swelling. Yes, it's a normal symptom of this type of injury, but at the time of his signing Markov was free of swelling and on track for a faster recovery. This is unquestionably a setback. Even if you choose to spin it as within the range of normal outcomes, it falls on the negative side of the scale.

On the other hand, I don't think swelling has any impact on his long-term recovery and eventual effectiveness. The operation was a success and he is healing. He may be close to 100% when he finally steps onto the ice, or he may not be, but this current delay will not be a factor in determining that (though recurring swelling may become a chronic problem).

I'm not happy about this delay and my...um... knee-jerk response is to assign it more meaning than it may deserve, but the ultimate answer to whether Markov was a good or bad signing will only be answered in April and May (and hopefully June!), not now.

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10-04-2011, 07:03 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The truth, I think, lies somewhere in between the two of you squabbling over whether Markov is more injured than feared, or right on track.

It's obvious nobody expected this bout of swelling. Yes, it's a normal symptom of this type of injury, but at the time of his signing Markov was free of swelling and on track for a faster recovery. This is unquestionably a setback. Even if you choose to spin it as within the range of normal outcomes, it falls on the negative side of the scale.

On the other hand, I don't think swelling has any impact on his long-term recovery and eventual effectiveness. The operation was a success and he is healing. He may be close to 100% when he finally steps onto the ice, or he may not be, but this current delay will not be a factor in determining that (though recurring swelling may become a chronic problem).

I'm not happy about this delay and my...um... knee-jerk response is to assign it more meaning than it may deserve, but the ultimate answer to whether Markov was a good or bad signing will only be answered in April and May (and hopefully June!), not now.
There was no swelling at the time Markov was resigned, but if anyone is surprised by this either the Habs need new medical advisors or the management did no research. It's common to be ahead of schedule for recovery and suffer a setback, happens all the time. This isn't the best case scenario but unless there's more than they are telling us, this was very predictable and says nothing about Markov's long term recovery.

Resigning Markov was a calculated risk that none of us can predict, but there's no way the club could be so poorly run as to have bet the house on Markov being ready for game 1. That would have been a ridiculous gamble, they have got to have went into this season under the assumption that Markov might not be ready until December.

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10-04-2011, 07:17 PM
  #330
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Is there any actual news on what Markov's schedule is? Or is it all speculation?

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10-04-2011, 07:32 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Is there any actual news on what Markov's schedule is? Or is it all speculation?
It's all based off the rotoworld interpretation of this:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...657/story.html

Last paragraph from JM.

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10-04-2011, 07:33 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Is there any actual news on what Markov's schedule is? Or is it all speculation?
Nobody really knows except the fluid in his knee -- and it's notoriously wishy-washy and tends to skate around direct answers.

Seriously, what's frustrating is that the reports have Markov skating alone, which, on the surface, sounds like the same scenario he was in from April. Again, I know the knee itself is mostly healed and that he's progressing, but many of us would love to see on-ice examples of progress -- taking part in practice/preparing for contact -- rather than vague quotes.

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10-04-2011, 07:49 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Nobody really knows except the fluid in his knee -- and it's notoriously wishy-washy and tends to skate around direct answers.

Seriously, what's frustrating is that the reports have Markov skating alone, which, on the surface, sounds like the same scenario he was in from April. Again, I know the knee itself is mostly healed and that he's progressing, but many of us would love to see on-ice examples of progress -- taking part in practice/preparing for contact -- rather than vague quotes.
I really don't see it like you. I could care less, the habs don't have to tell the fans anything about player injuries. Markov isn't here for your amusement. The only thing I want from the habs is to make the playoffs and win the cup. You don't make the playoffs in October, so whatever Markov needs to do to be healthy in April is managements prerogative. Yes yes, I know that you have to win games to make the playoffs, but I think the team we have can do that without him and we will be better if he comes in healthy.

Keep Markov out until he is 100% or something like that.

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10-04-2011, 08:02 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I really don't see it like you. I could care less, the habs don't have to tell the fans anything about player injuries. Markov isn't here for your amusement. The only thing I want from the habs is to make the playoffs and win the cup. You don't make the playoffs in October, so whatever Markov needs to do to be healthy in April is managements prerogative. Yes yes, I know that you have to win games to make the playoffs, but I think the team we have can do that without him and we will be better if he comes in healthy.

Keep Markov out until he is 100% or something like that.
The only difference in our perspectives seems to be that you sound ambivalent about whether or not he returns, while I see a big investment of dollars banking on a big payoff in skill when he returns. There's more at stake from where I sit, so yes, as a Markov fan who recognizes what he brings to our team, I am concerned at any setback, even if I acknowledge that he may be fine by December.

I don't feel particularly 'amused' by the situation, however. I have no idea where that comment comes from.

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10-04-2011, 08:08 PM
  #335
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Wow, it's as if speculating is gonna bring Markov back. It won't.

It was admitted that he had a set-back 2 weeks ago. So Markov was on a particular schedule, but a set-back threw it off. Can they take set-backs into account? Yes. Can they predict them? No.

Not everyone has them. Markov said he was going to be ready for training camp. This happened before his set-back. After it, it was reported that healing would have been delayed 3 weeks.

Geeze guys relax.

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10-04-2011, 08:10 PM
  #336
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would there be a way to find out how Markov skating is - All out, doing drills or is it a casual thing?

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10-04-2011, 08:14 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The only difference in our perspectives seems to be that you sound ambivalent about whether or not he returns, while I see a big investment of dollars banking on a big payoff in skill when he returns. There's more at stake from where I sit, so yes, as a Markov fan who recognizes what he brings to our team, I am concerned at any setback, even if I acknowledge that he may be fine by December.

I don't feel particularly 'amused' by the situation, however. I have no idea where that comment comes from.
I just see it as the habs management has whats best for Markov and the organization. What I know about the situations changes nothing. If you think knowing will help he get on the ice, whatever. I just want a healthy Markov, not a player rushed to start the season.

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10-04-2011, 08:19 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I just see it as the habs management has whats best for Markov and the organization. What I know about the situations changes nothing. If you think knowing will help he get on the ice, whatever. I just want a healthy Markov, not a player rushed to start the season.
We all agree that none of our chatter changes anything, but there are over 330 posts preceding mine that apparently agree it's an interesting subject to chatter about.

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10-04-2011, 08:24 PM
  #339
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Just, wait, if he misses a few weeks, even months, Markov is a bargain,

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10-04-2011, 08:30 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can't just look at one year and say Grabovsky is better than Gomez. Prior to last year Grabovsky's career year was 48 points which was equal to Gomez' worst year of his career.

Getting Pateryn and a 2nd for him was a great trade.
Whoa there, Nellie. Didn't Gomez score 7 G, 31 A, last season? I'd say 48 > 38, wouldn't you?

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10-04-2011, 08:40 PM
  #341
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Whoa there, Nellie. Didn't Gomez score 7 G, 31 A, last season? I'd say 48 > 38, wouldn't you?
He said "prior to last year" which would've been before his 38 point season...

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10-04-2011, 09:28 PM
  #342
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This is what JM told TSN today:

"Andrei is on schedule as far as his rehab from his knee surgery," said Martin. "Things have gone well. He's not skating with the team yet but we are hoping that he'll start shortly, and then hopefully at some point at the beginning of the season he'll be able to rejoin our team."

While he gave no date, I think that gives a good idea of where Marky is in his rehab.
Reno Lavoie wrote today also that they hope he re-joins the team some time before the end of October.

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10-05-2011, 06:19 AM
  #343
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While it's nice to hear someone say something about Markov's progress I'll interpret it as damage control at this point. Markov himself expected to be 100 % ready for camp. Martin "hoped" Markov would be ready for the first game. What's different about this latest statement and why should I believe it?

Now it's a question of whether or not he'll be ready for any games in October but the organization is "hoping". So am I.

And a poster above put into eloquent words what I've been trying to say. Thanks to Lshap..............

And for those wondering why I keep harping on the subject - it's because from a business perspective I find it very interesting. Would the Hamrlik non-signing been different? Would Campoli have been signed? Diaz has been a pleasant surprise and will it translate into the regular season to help make up for this setback? Do the Habs have enough depth to compensate for any other D injuries which have come fast and furious at the beginning of the last couple of seasons? Will JM go into D mode again realizing his D is mostly made up of 5th / 6th 7th d-men? What does the added stress mean to Josh Gorges and his knee? Those are just a few thoughts.

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10-05-2011, 08:25 AM
  #344
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it's simple:

lost the minute-eating hamrlik
lost the point producing wiz

weber has disapointed and taken a step back imo.
yemelin proved that he won't be completely at ease and his old self for a while
woytwika can't cut it.
diaz is better than expected, but not good enough.
and nobody else from hamiton proved they could hold a spot. maybe nash, but he got injured so he'll probably get a chance during the season

that's why we got campoli.

if youre management, you look internally first to fill those holes. if you can honestly expect weber to continue his progression and be able to hold a spot at least on the third pairing, you don't go sign a UFA dman because then you'll have an extra player who'll do nothing but sit in the press box eating cap space and a precious contract.
- weber was supposed to take a step up and produce points from the back end and be at least as defensively responsible as wiz - which isn't hard to do.
- yemelin was suppose to eat some minutes, be physical and defensively responsible.
- and markov will be back shortly

none of those things have happened. so we get help in campoli.

markov comes back and solves both the hamrlik and wiz problem in one shot.

that's what preseason and the camp is for, evaluate the young players. they did and found that signing another dman would be good. so they did. it's called depth and it's a good thing

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10-05-2011, 08:48 AM
  #345
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"We hope that he'll join our team at some point during the beginning of the season"

To me this is good news. Although I also wouldn't be surprised to only see him around Christmas.


Also, guys, the reason for the secrecy and no set timetable is not because they want to hide it from the fans and yadayada conspiracy this or that. It's really simple, they don't know.

That's why all they know and say is that his rehab is going according to plan. They simply can't give a timetable for his return and then if he has a setback or what not people will freak out.

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10-05-2011, 08:51 AM
  #346
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Campoli was targetted the minute he became UFA early in the summer btw. They didn't contact him only at training camp.

So I don't know how you can say tha they went to get Campoli when they were in discussions with him at the time where Markov said he should be back around training camp.

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10-05-2011, 08:55 AM
  #347
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Campoli was targetted the minute he became UFA early in the summer btw. They didn't contact him only at training camp.

So I don't know how you can say tha they went to get Campoli when they were in discussions with him at the time where Markov said he should be back around training camp.
It's called being prepared. Master Decoy's post makes tons of sense, to me anyway. Pretty much exactly what happened if you ask me.

Only thing I would say is that getting him or not had less to do with Markov, but moreso with Emelin and Diaz. Emelin, at least I think, has been a disappointment for management. That's the biggest reason if you ask me. I think they thought he'd be ready to play NHL games right now and I don't think he is. At least not yet.

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10-05-2011, 08:59 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Or yours................
There's an obvious disconnect in our 'debate'...so while I was going to tempt going further in this discussion, it's become quite apparent it's pointless.

I'll let you get back to thinking the Habs signed Markov without a shred of knowledge that his knee might not be ready for training camp, even though anyone with a PC and an internet connection can find out the convalescence with this type of injury can take up to 12 months

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10-05-2011, 09:09 AM
  #349
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Debates about the pre-Big Bang era have more facts than the Markov injury debate.

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10-05-2011, 09:10 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The truth, I think, lies somewhere in between the two of you squabbling over whether Markov is more injured than feared, or right on track.

It's obvious nobody expected this bout of swelling. Yes, it's a normal symptom of this type of injury, but at the time of his signing Markov was free of swelling and on track for a faster recovery. This is unquestionably a setback. Even if you choose to spin it as within the range of normal outcomes, it falls on the negative side of the scale.

On the other hand, I don't think swelling has any impact on his long-term recovery and eventual effectiveness. The operation was a success and he is healing. He may be close to 100% when he finally steps onto the ice, or he may not be, but this current delay will not be a factor in determining that (though recurring swelling may become a chronic problem).

I'm not happy about this delay and my...um... knee-jerk response is to assign it more meaning than it may deserve, but the ultimate answer to whether Markov was a good or bad signing will only be answered in April and May (and hopefully June!), not now.
I'm not squabbling over that at all...

Again, all i've said was that Markov's recovery is within the normal timelines for a re-injury and surgery of an ACL tear. I have no clue if Markov's knee is worse than the organization is letting on, neither does anyone. All i've maintained is that it's pretty pointless to draw any conclusions because Markov at this point, is still in recovery. He's not necessarily 'supposed' to be practicing at full strength, much less playing.

Tom Brady shredded his ACL a few years ago and missed an entire year and had MULTIPLE complications after his surgery (he had to go back twice after his initial surgery to clean it up) and went almost 12 months between taking snaps.

No one can predict how the human body will react in these types of situations...to think management wouldn't know this when they decided to re-sign Markov is exactly naive IMO. Of course they knew the risk they were taking and I think it's foolish to think that management wouldn't know that Markov may not be ready for game 1 and it's equally foolish to think they made their decision to re-sign him based on him being ready for game 1.

Whether or not Markov is ready for game 1 or game 10, matters little...he's recovering from major knee surgery, the second of which in about 18 months. He'll be back when he's good and ready. That's all that really matters...

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