Kinda reminds me of Pavel Bure (when Bure was 12).
This is a make or break year for Sam. I hope he makes it, but he has a lot of ground to make up, improve his D-game should be priority one and improve his offense priority two.
In the game against Vancouver, I saw flashes of his new "speed" but also, he lost a lot of puck battles and gave up the puck a few times on even-strength, which led to direct scoring chances. All his powerplay time the last few years really inflated, his not so inflated stats.
Honestly, for me, it would of been a hard choice between Cog's and Sam. At least with Sam, you should of been able to get a 1st or maybe two 2nd's; and Cog's could still grow into the speedy (faceoff challenged) 2nd line center.
That was Gagners twin brother playing last game. Actually the same "Sam Gagner" from his rookie season. They take turn playing and don't want their secret to be known for fear of looking like Henrik and Daniel. So case in point the original Gagner is going to be playing again this year and all of this coo- ca- rooed bickering over him will stop.
Oh jeez i'm good friends with a guy in the NHL, and he's had a personal trainer since we were 13, if not sooner. And this is a guy who had commitment issues and was undrafted. Gagner is no different than the rest of the guys in the league.
And it's funny you bring up his Dad, as he didn't break out or become an NHL regular untill he was 24 i believe(23 maybe).
So he had a personal trainer but had commitment issues and you compare him to someone that makes millions of $'s based on performance? Reaching much? Are you going to tell me that he doesn't have an advantage having a built in trainer in his immediate family?
His dad not breaking out until he was 23 or 24 means little in the grand scheme of things, if you want to look at families let's look at brothers, exact same parents, both mother and father, how was Gretzky's brother? 2nd greatest of all time right? Sam has had more success early on in his career than his dad so really theer is very little reason to base Gagner's career on his dads. Hell I guess Seguin isn't going to be worth a crap since his dad wasn't an all star.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Gagner is doing nothing more than keeping a seat warm for RNH until he's finally ready to play fulltime. When that happens he's gone down the road for whatever we're fortunate enough to get for him.
Gagner is doing nothing more than keeping a seat warm for RNH until he's finally ready to play fulltime. When that happens he's gone down the road for whatever we're fortunate enough to get for him.
Do you see Lander stepping into the 2C role eventually? I think that he could do the trick with Paajarvi and Omark/Hartikainen/Pitlick.
So he had a personal trainer but had commitment issues and you compare him to someone that makes millions of $'s based on performance? Reaching much? Are you going to tell me that he doesn't have an advantage having a built in trainer in his immediate family?
What are you talking about, how is comparing one NHLers training regime to anothers a reach? My point is all of these guys have been training forever for this, even the guys who are less dedicated than they should be have been seeing personal trainers for some time. Gagner probably hasn't been dealing with a personal trainer much longer than anyone else has. I would consider his Dad's background an advantage in determining if he'll get to the next level physicaly before i'd call it a disadvantage. No personal trainer can make your body develop faster (even if they could it wouldn't be by much), that's left up to genes. Most NHLers are at their optimal physique, any improvement in strength or speed is made through physical maturation.
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His dad not breaking out until he was 23 or 24 means little in the grand scheme of things, if you want to look at families let's look at brothers, exact same parents, both mother and father, how was Gretzky's brother? 2nd greatest of all time right? Sam has had more success early on in his career than his dad so really theer is very little reason to base Gagner's career on his dads. Hell I guess Seguin isn't going to be worth a crap since his dad wasn't an all star.
It means something, two things in fact:
1. His dad's age of breaking out is the typical age for an NHLer to break out
2. I don't know about you but my faternal twin brother who looks just like my Dad (as Ganger looks like his), began filling out around the same time he did, hell even his hair is falling out around the same time, and i filled out similar to my maternal uncle and grandfather(I take after my mother's side). Like my parents their is disparity in our strengths and weaknesses. Like my Dad my brother is a natural athlete, where i am far more passionate towards sports i don't share that same skill, as I like my mothers side am very book smart. Neither of us share the same traits despite being twins, but we certainly both retained similar traits to our parents. I don't see how two people with similar genes wouldn't have some correlation in terms of their physical development.
A persons development is commonly understood to be determined by two factors Nature vs Nurture, so there is allowance for disparity of ability between two people even if they share the same traits. With the Gretzky example, nobody knows the relevant factors determined by the nuturing he recieved, or what genes he got(as illustrated by my example). Say i got my dad's physical gifts but retained my personality, i would almost certainly be far more successful than my brother is in sports due to our outlook/perspective on how to compete. And just one more point on the Gretzky front, his son sure seems to have gotten his physical talents for baseball. It isn't a fluke that many hockey families have success at developing generations of NHL talent, it's in the genes. Mark Howe had attributes similar to his Dad, and like his Dad was a peak athlete well into his later years. David Musil sure reminds me of his dad, and even his uncle Bobby Holik for that matter, and just like them he matured physically rather fast.
So in summary, I never said it was a foolproof indication, but it's certainly relevant, so way to hyperbolize my statement. The last two sentences are straw men arguments and completley contrary to anything i said. Again i never said it was certain that Gagner and his dad mature the same way but the fact is one MAY be able to give us an idea on the other.
Very possible, not sure how much untapped offensive potential he has. Certainly at worst, a 3rd line shutdown guy.
I don't know if he'll be a top 6 guy right away, if at all. But he sure seems like the type of player who can seemingly will himself talent. He just wants it that bad.lol. Mediocre skater one year the next year it looks like it's a strength, just crazy. I think he's most likely a very similar player to Jarret Stoll, although who knows what that might have been had he not got that concussion. Never was the same...
He was blanked last night and despite playing with Hall didn't set him up in prime locations as much as say RNH set up Eberle. I thought that he looked quicker but still nonchalant defensively, kid could learn some lessons from RNH on how to use his stick defensively.
yes but, quite honestly, so could 90% of current nhl players. RNH has a natural knack for puck retrival (much like a datsyuk) that most players do not have.
gagner did look faster than he has in the past, and that's not just in comparison to the garbage lineup the canucks were icing, but as well in comparison to the rest of the oilers roster whom we've all seen gagner skate with the last 4 seasons.
admittedly i'm a gagner fan and i think it would be huge mistake giving up on him so young. that being said, i do agree that he needs to step up his production this season before one the younger centers coming up supplants him on the oilers roster.
Now a veteran NHLer as a 22-year-old, Gagner is going to have a wonderful season imo. He's a special player. For comparison's sake, Sam's father, Dave, was just breaking into the league at this age, and he had a highly productive career as an NHLer. Gagner's speed this season will compliment his hockey smarts, and we'll begin to see the kind of player that he will become for many many years in this league. His performance in the faceoff circle has also been noteworthy thus far in the pre-season. I'm excited for Gagner and what he might accomplish. Speed will play an important factor in his game.
In all seriousness, he did look quicker, if he keeps it up it should help his game. That said his strength is still a major concern of mine, if he's quicker and NHL average in strength, suddenly my opinion of him does a 180. That said, why now? Why not his sophomore or 3rd or even 4th season? Did it really take RNH getting drafted for him to wake up and smell the coffee? Regardless of the timing if he can improve in those two areas he becomes a better asset to the team or in trade and that is a very good thing.
This is his 4th season unless I have my math screwed up. I know that I personally matured physically the most between 21 and 25, so
I'm sure it's possible for other people to do the same.
What are you talking about, how is comparing one NHLers training regime to anothers a reach? My point is all of these guys have been training forever for this, even the guys who are less dedicated than they should be have been seeing personal trainers for some time. Gagner probably hasn't been dealing with a personal trainer much longer than anyone else has. I would consider his Dad's background an advantage in determining if he'll get to the next level physicaly before i'd call it a disadvantage. No personal trainer can make your body develop faster (even if they could it wouldn't be by much), that's left up to genes. Most NHLers are at their optimal physique, any improvement in strength or speed is made through physical maturation.
My initial response was with me missing that your friend is/was an NHL player. That said if your friend wasn't that hard of a worker chances are that he's A) Big or B) extremely talented to get to where he is today. Maybe a combo of A and B.
If it's all up to genes then Gagner needs to get shipped out now because if he's a weakling at 22, chances are that even in his physical prime he won't be very strong.
Quote:
It means something, two things in fact:
1. His dad's age of breaking out is the typical age for an NHLer to break out
2. I don't know about you but my faternal twin brother who looks just like my Dad (as Ganger looks like his), began filling out around the same time he did, hell even his hair is falling out around the same time, and i filled out similar to my maternal uncle and grandfather(I take after my mother's side). Like my parents their is disparity in our strengths and weaknesses. Like my Dad my brother is a natural athlete, where i am far more passionate towards sports i don't share that same skill, as I like my mothers side am very book smart. Neither of us share the same traits despite being twins, but we certainly both retained similar traits to our parents. I don't see how two people with similar genes wouldn't have some correlation in terms of their physical development.
A persons development is commonly understood to be determined by two factors Nature vs Nurture, so there is allowance for disparity of ability between two people even if they share the same traits. With the Gretzky example, nobody knows the relevant factors determined by the nuturing he recieved, or what genes he got(as illustrated by my example). Say i got my dad's physical gifts but retained my personality, i would almost certainly be far more successful than my brother is in sports due to our outlook/perspective on how to compete. And just one more point on the Gretzky front, his son sure seems to have gotten his physical talents for baseball. It isn't a fluke that many hockey families have success at developing generations of NHL talent, it's in the genes. Mark Howe had attributes similar to his Dad, and like his Dad was a peak athlete well into his later years. David Musil sure reminds me of his dad, and even his uncle Bobby Holik for that matter, and just like them he matured physically rather fast.
So in summary, I never said it was a foolproof indication, but it's certainly relevant, so way to hyperbolize my statement. The last two sentences are straw men arguments and completley contrary to anything i said. Again i never said it was certain that Gagner and his dad mature the same way but the fact is one MAY be able to give us an idea on the other.
You brought his dad into the equation, ultimately it might not mean a damn thing that his dad was an NHL player. There are far more cases of kids not reaching their parents success in sports than the other way around. And do we really have to wait until next season to see if he magically replicates the same kind of jump that his dad did? What are the odds that his dad worked out as much as Sam does back then? His dad had minimal success to that point while Gagner has stagnated to this point after having immediate success.
I thought people were just noting his apparent speed increase, which looked fairly apparent to me.
I don't take issue with that at all...I should have been clearer in my response.
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Originally Posted by Petro Points
to be fair.. most here were bashing him and slotting Lander and RNH ahead of him without even seeing him in action this year. One decent outing and all the bashers have disappeared.. If he scores a couple points next game those bashers will convert into fans.. But only until he stops scoring.. the cycle of being a typical Oiler fan on these boards.
Actually he did look a little quicker to my eye as well but the level of competition needs to improve before I am completely convinced.
I guess I was commenting on the posters (in a few threads lately) who, as you pointed out, try to inject meaning into the meaningless just to further a worn out agenda. Gagner is all of 22 years old...he is a long ways from hitting his ceiling.
This is his 4th season unless I have my math screwed up. I know that I personally matured physically the most between 21 and 25, so
I'm sure it's possible for other people to do the same.
It's his 5th, he was young for his draft year. Hall for example, was almost a year older in his rookie season than Gagner was in his. Your point still stands though.
This is his 4th season unless I have my math screwed up. I know that I personally matured physically the most between 21 and 25, so
I'm sure it's possible for other people to do the same.
Possible yes, however am I to believe that his lack of physical progression between 17 and 21 is normal and that suddenly between 22 and 25 he'll improve significantly in his strength?
This is his 4th season unless I have my math screwed up. I know that I personally matured physically the most between 21 and 25, so
I'm sure it's possible for other people to do the same.
I agree....this isn't at all a linear progression here. In terms of physical maturity the ages of 21-25 are much more significant than 17-21.
Possible yes, however am I to believe that his lack of physical progression between 17 and 21 is normal and that suddenly between 22 and 25 he'll improve significantly in his strength?
My math was wrong I was adding 7+4=11 but forgot that the 11 would count as a season. And I had two major maturing periods around 22 and a half and 25 with slight increases in between.
I agree....this isn't at all a linear progression here. In terms of physical maturity the ages of 21-25 are much more significant than 17-21.
Even if that's the case no progression between 17-21 isn't the least bit concerning? 4 years is 4 years. I can see 21-25 being more significant, but you don't go from a weakling to a beast in 2 years.
My math was wrong I was adding 7+4=11 but forgot that the 11 would count as a season. And I had two major maturing periods around 22 and a half and 25 with slight increases in between.
I assume that you mean that you added muscle mass at those points in your life? If that's the case at 5'10"/5'11" and 190ish lbs. how much more muscle mass do we expect Gagner to add?
Even if that's the case no progression between 17-21 isn't the least bit concerning? 4 years is 4 years. I can see 21-25 being more significant, but you don't go from a weakling to a beast in 2 years.
I know guys who were scrawny kids in school who now could compete in muscle building contests. Everyones bodies are different and some mature in high school while other mature later. RNH will be the definition of late bloomer while someone like Landeskog has already matured physically.
Even if that's the case no progression between 17-21 isn't the least bit concerning? 4 years is 4 years. I can see 21-25 being more significant, but you don't go from a weakling to a beast in 2 years.
I don't understand how you can claim there has been 'no progression'? What frame of reference are you using?
In all honesty I think Oilers management played a big role in Gagner's development to this point and I don't see that as a positive. Putting a player like Sam into a position to fail the last 2 years is not smart player development. Despite that I see improvements in his game...he is rising above the limitations being placed on him. Quite honestly the Oiler's are lucky that they haven't ruined Sam like Columbus did with Brule.
There is no set template for player progression...there never has been.
