Bottom line is that Gagner's FO% needs to improve about 10%. If that happens, I believe that a lot of his flaws will become barely noticeable.
He's a strong puck possessor, but only an average puck retriever. The Oilers are currently a puck retrieval team and, as a result, players that are better at puck possession (as most players are, imo) are being exposed. I suggest that on a good team we would not notice many of his weaknesses.
Thats fine. Except that Gagner is one of the main culprits responsible for even a healthy Oilers roster not being a good team.
Ok, fair enough, I suppose, although I don't necessarily agree with the "main" part.
So do you believe that the Oilers are a better team without Gagner in the lineup?
Obviously that would be dependant upon who they're replacing him with.
And its not like Gagner is easily replaced by simply resorting to the closest AHL option resembling an NHL centre. We've found that out before.
I guess what I am saying is...in order for the Oilers to be a much better team....they need a much better player in place of Gagner. Or (maybe still) Gagner to be much better.
There was an obvious reason why we were HOPING for a superstar when Gagner got drafted: Because we needed one. In order to win.
RNH might not be more than 2 years away. He might be ready right now.
Im more interested in seeing what he can do than seeing what improvements Gagner comes up with. Ive seen that song & dance before.
I'll add: If RNH can put together comparable faceoff % to what Gagner is doing....right now...its hard to iamgine RNH's era not starting .....right now...and the beginning of the end of Sam as an Oiler mainstay.
Obviously that would be dependant upon who they're replacing him with.
And its not like Gagner is easily replaced by simply resorting to the closest AHL option resembling an NHL centre. We've found that out before.
I guess what I am saying is...in order for the Oilers to be a much better team....they need a much better player in place of Gagner. Or (maybe still) Gagner to be much better.
There was an obvious reason why we were HOPING for a superstar when Gagner got drafted: Because we needed one. In order to win.
RNH might not be more than 2 years away. He might be ready right now.
Im more interested in seeing what he can do than seeing what improvements Gagner comes up with. Ive seen that song & dance before.
Of course, that can be said about any player.
I guess, for me, the bottom line is that Gagner's offensive game is of no real concern to me. It's his FO% that concerns me the most and, I believe, that if this aspect of his game improves to above 50%, the rest of his game will look much better.
I guess, for me, the bottom line is that Gagner's offensive game is of no real concern to me. It's his FO% that concerns me the most and, I believe, that if this aspect of his game improves to above 50%, the rest of his game will look much better.
I don't deny faceoffs are a key. Thing is...you don't find very many (if any) great players who are terrible at faceoffs.
Being terrible on the draw is often a reflection of more profound & generic limitations.
I know Crosby struggled his 1rst season. He spent all of one summer working at faceoffs in order to get it caught up with the rest of his game. It didn't take long to make a big improvement.
Granted, thats Crosby.
Still....I feel...if your not very good at faceoffs....your likely not a very good centreman....especially going on 5 years in the league.
And I'll add...the Oilers tried to move Gagner onto the wing. Gagner decided he was even less comfortable as a winger. Which...I kinda' expected...he doesn't have certain tools to play the wing, either.
He will probably have better seasons but ultimately he will have to fix his fatal flaws if he is going to be part of a championship team and that's the ultimate goal isn't it?
Depends what you classify as his fatal flaws. And I think if he continues to progress and becomes even 50% on the dot that he would have a spot on any championship caliber team by the time he is 25.
Belanger is a fair comment, i wouldn't disagree with that at all.
At the same age? I don't know how you can say that, if they had all of that on him they certainly would have outperformed him. We called them the Sedin sisters forever so i don't know about strength/size.
At the same age weren't they behind one of the best lines in hockey? Gagner on the other hand has had time with our best players, did the Sedins get to play with Naslund or Bertuzzi?
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At the same age weren't they behind one of the best lines in hockey? Gagner on the other hand has had time with our best players, did the Sedins get to play with Naslund or Bertuzzi?
Really, the Sedins just like to play with themselves.
I'll add: If RNH can put together comparable faceoff % to what Gagner is doing....right now...its hard to iamgine RNH's era not starting .....right now...and the beginning of the end of Sam as an Oiler mainstay.
Say Gagner does improve, why can't they coexist? If your trading a player based of faceoff % then i think your making a big mistake. Briere isn't a facoff ace but he seems to do just fine. No doubt faceoff acume is a feather in your cap.
At the same age weren't they behind one of the best lines in hockey? Gagner on the other hand has had time with our best players, did the Sedins get to play with Naslund or Bertuzzi?
No but they were getting shelterd minutes, and last year was the first year where i think he had good linemates and that was only for the first 30 games. Penner and Hemsky is the best he's ever had, and that's only been the past 2 years where Hemsky has been hurt more often than not, with Penner moving around a lot last year. Gagner's regular linemates have not been anything better than 2nd and 3rd liners for most of his career. And in fairness his numbers were very solid while he was with Hemsky last year. Two rookies (PRV Omark) isn't stellar linemates, hell two years ago he played a lot with Brule. Not exactly stellar either. Penner had his best year with Gagner as his center. I don't think Gagner actually has gotten great linemates.
It's not a perfect comparison, no comparison is. But the fact is there are many other examples. Samsanov for one, as one poster pointed out.
Paajarvi played a far better two way game than Sam did last year.
Oh i think thats exaggerated. Paajarvi leaving the zone early isn't neccesarily a good thing. In my hockey experience the best defensive players don't leave early or late, just right on time. If Paajarvi is so great defensively then why did Gagner's +/- plumment when put on a line with him and Jones/Omark? He was a rookie and his defense was good considering that, but it was far from good, IMO.
How about Comrie? York? Both had their best years at a young age.
York's best year was his 25 year old season (his last with Edmonton), IMO. The guy should have been an All star. Even if you go by offense only it was his 23 year old season that was his best, he didn't even make the league until he was 20. Comrie's best year was arguably his 25 year old season, if not it may have been his 21 year old season and he really did get a push. He replaced Weight on a line with Gurein and Smyth iirc, that's a couple of all stars. In his 25 year old season he didn't get linemates like that, and produced offence as good on a worse team. Again he only made the league as a 20 year old. So the case of those two i'd say their best years were their 25 year old seasons. If you don't buy that, then they were in their 21 year old seasons(York was 6 months younger than Gagner is now, and Comrie one year).
Like i said it does happen when players flame out early, it's just not typical nor can it be expected.
Paajarvi played a far better two way game than Sam did last year.
Paajarvis known for his 2 way game... last year was the first time this team actually had some skill on it other than 4th line grinders. our tteam this year is a huge step forward from last year probably the best team weve had since 06'. You just need to have some patience and watch gagner blossom this year with all the skill and depth we have now.. He himself must know its now or never.
60 + points.. I think so. A breakout year.. I think so...
were clearly more responsible for our terrible record, IMO.
And even then none of these guys were any better, if not worse:
Omark, Paajarvi, Reddox, Petry, Cogliano, Jones
And there are eve more guys you could make argument for.
So i'd say the Oilers employed 18 worse or no better players for 10 plus games at least.
Nope. It doesn't work that way.
Gagner is supposed to be a leading ice time centreman. He is supposed to dictate how much of the game plays out. He should be taking about 20 minutes of ice time per game.
Renney can't give him that....because he doesn't get good results with leashed (somewhat) icetime as it is.
So...
Among the Oiler centres last year...I'll admit...Brule & Fraser never looked ready to take any of the shifts Gagner was getting.
I'll submit Renney could have tried swapping Cogs<>Gags from time to time...except that....Cogliano couldn't give us anymore faceoffs than Gagner.
So, sure, Gagner is better than a few bad players by default.
That doesn't mean there is still not a decent amount of blame falling on Gagners' shoulders for the losses.
It just means theres a few others who would get the same amount of blame if they got the same amount of opportunity to play.
Gagner is supposed to be a leading ice time centreman. He is supposed to dictate how much of the game plays out. He should be taking about 20 minutes of ice time per game.
Renney can't give him that....because he doesn't get good results with leashed (somewhat) icetime as it is.
So...
Among the Oiler centres last year...I'll admit...Brule & Fraser never looked ready to take any of the shifts Gagner was getting.
I'll submit Renney could have tried swapping Cogs<>Gags from time to time...except that....Cogliano couldn't give us anymore faceoffs than Gagner.
So, sure, Gagner is better than a few bad players by default.
That doesn't mean there is still not a decent amount of blame falling on Gagners' shoulders for the losses.
It just means theres a few others who would get the same amount of blame if they got the same amount of opportunity to play.
I see your point and don't disagree, i don't think he was at the point where he can help a team win last year in the role he's going to have to have going forward. My point is neither were a bunch of other Oilers, and he should get there as he wasn't far off from being there either. It's hard to hold his 21 year old season against him too much when most others aren't even in the league yet.
O a personal ote this has been a very reasonable debate, somewhat unusual for HFboards at times.
Gagner is supposed to be a leading ice time centreman. He is supposed to dictate how much of the game plays out. He should be taking about 20 minutes of ice time per game.
Renney can't give him that....because he doesn't get good results with leashed (somewhat) icetime as it is.
So...
Among the Oiler centres last year...I'll admit...Brule & Fraser never looked ready to take any of the shifts Gagner was getting.
I'll submit Renney could have tried swapping Cogs<>Gags from time to time...except that....Cogliano couldn't give us anymore faceoffs than Gagner.
So, sure, Gagner is better than a few bad players by default.
That doesn't mean there is still not a decent amount of blame falling on Gagners' shoulders for the losses.
It just means theres a few others who would get the same amount of blame if they got the same amount of opportunity to play.
Yea blame a 21 year old for our losing years. It has nothing to do with players that have no drive like Penner, or players who have declined so much that they no longer can contribute the way they were like Horcoff, or the injuries that piled up on the whole team, or the incompetence of the management team who couldn't bring in players to help fill the voids. Nope it's on the 21 year old Gagner who is the second leading point getter from his draft class and arguably the 2nd-4th best player right now from that class. Because he was playing minutes that should have been filled by a more experienced center.
Yea blame a 21 year old for our losing years. It has nothing to do with players that have no drive like Penner, or players who have declined so much that they no longer can contribute the way they were like Horcoff, or the injuries that piled up on the whole team, or the incompetence of the management team who couldn't being in players to help fill the voids. Nope it's on the 21 year old Gagner who is the second leading point getter from his draft class and arguably the 2nd-4th best player right now from that class. Because he was playing minutes that should have been filled by a more experienced center.
Yea blame a 21 year old for our losing years. It has nothing to do with players that have no drive like Penner, or players who have declined so much that they no longer can contribute the way they were like Horcoff, or the injuries that piled up on the whole team, or the incompetence of the management team who couldn't being in players to help fill the voids. Nope it's on the 21 year old Gagner who is the second leading point getter from his draft class and arguably the 2nd-4th best player right now from that class. Because he was playing minutes that should have been filled by a more experienced center.
Really? Who would dare argue that he's #2? #4 is already a stretch.
Yea blame a 21 year old for our losing years. It has nothing to do with players that have no drive like Penner, or players who have declined so much that they no longer can contribute the way they were like Horcoff, or the injuries that piled up on the whole team, or the incompetence of the management team who couldn't being in players to help fill the voids. Nope it's on the 21 year old Gagner who is the second leading point getter from his draft class and arguably the 2nd-4th best player right now from that class. Because he was playing minutes that should have been filled by a more experienced center.
