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2011-2012 Sens Lineup/Roster thread part 3

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Old
10-02-2011, 09:15 AM
  #151
operasen
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Greening-Spezza-Butler
Michalek-DaCosta-Alfredsson
Filatov-Regin-Condra
Foligno-Smith-Neil
Konopka

Cowen - Karlsson
Lee - Gonchar
Phillips - Rundblad
Carkner

Greening, Michalek and Filatov are interchangeable as we have yet to establish a LW depth.

If Runblad plays, Gonchar shoud not move to his dark side... He will not be as effective. I think they start with Lee playiing the other side as he has established a more dependable role.

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10-02-2011, 11:56 AM
  #152
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Filatov-Spezza-Regin
Michalek-Zinbanejad-Alfredsson
Foligno-Smith-Condra
Greening-Konopka-Neil

ex: Winchester
sent down: Da Costa, Butler

Phillips-Lee
Cowen-Gonchar
Kuba-Karlsson

ex: Carkner
sent down: Runblad

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Old
10-02-2011, 12:04 PM
  #153
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Phillips is 100% a LD.
Gonchar needs to be a RD to be effective.
I don't care who plays what side I put together the lines I want. Lee is RD then, if it matter to you that much.

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Old
10-02-2011, 12:23 PM
  #154
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Old
10-02-2011, 12:35 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
It's different if this is a multi-year multi-million dollar contract. If that the case, of course I agree with you. But he is fringe NHLer and who knows, maybe he didn't have any other one way offers.

IMO there are 14 better forwards on the team. He didn't make the team. How could anyone be pissed at the Sens for moving a player that didn't make their team?

Players with guaranteed long term contracts have been sent down to the minors before.

And what about the message it sends to your young players? You come into camp, work hard, and deserve to on the team. But then they tell you you're not because of some no talent plug who has a one way contract.
He played 156 games in the last 2 seasons, 195 total. Not sure why you keep saying fringe player. This guy is perfect for the 13th forward position, just like Winchester. You won't hurt his development by sitting him, and he won't hurt the team playing in the bottom 6.

As far as 14 better forwards, he isn't competing with a lot of them. You keep bringing up that he takes away a spot for a better player in Da Costa, but in reality, Zibanejad, and Regin would be the ones taking away that spot from Da Costa. Konopka is only competing with guys in line for the bottom 6 center positions; Smith, Wincester, maybe Regin. Regin can slide over to the wing if necessary.

Not sure why you're so anxious to have one of long term prospects sit as the 13th man, unless you think Winchester will always be healthy, or want to put our skill guys on the 4th line.

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10-02-2011, 12:38 PM
  #156
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Old
10-02-2011, 01:08 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
Is this what you wanted me to respond to, really? I already said I can't keep having this discussion with you.
The superiority complex is really annoying.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
If you can't see that Konopka didn't have to win a spot on this team, I can't change that. He made the team with his 10 years of pro experience. In those 10 years, he proved himself and earned himself a contract and role with Ottawa for the 2011-12 season.
Better call up Gordie Howe and his 35 years of experience (or whatever it is)! Is the required? Experience doesn't matter as much as talent.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
Within those 10 years of pro experience at both the AHL and NHL level, he has proven his willingness to stick up for his teammates and take the heat off younger players. A character guy who wins faceoffs, plays the PK, forechecks every shifts and keeps players on both teams honest. His recently signed contract proves this, Ottawa wants and needs his services.
Don't paint him as some great invaluable NHL player. He has a grand total of 14 points in two full NHL seasons. Last year he played on a bad Islanders team that also employed Trevor Gillies. And for the record, I don't hate Konopka. I wouldn't mind having him around if there was a need for bodies, but he is a fringe NHLer and should easily be sent packing in favor of better players. And there are already players on the team that do all those things you say he does well.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
As far as his play this exhibition, I'm sure you realize veterans don't care about exhibition games. They are secure in their role, because they have earned their position of safety on the team and they know how to flip their competitive switch, once the actual season starts. They know what it takes, that is why they are called veterans.
I don't care about his play in the pre-season. As you mentioned he is a veteran. He is what he is. What I do care about is Da Costa and Zibanejad proving they are better players, and that they would help the team more. And don't say Konopka has a specific 4th line role --> Foligno/Greening/Condra - Smith - Neil is a fine 4th line.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
Another thing, I went to the game in Toronto at the start of the exhibition season, if you don't realize how much Konopka brings to the youth of this team just watch Konopka on the bench when you go watch a game. His linemates, in particular, Hoffman, Lessard, Greening and even Neil are always asking him questions. They get off the ice and the first thing they do is talk about what just happened and what they saw out there, how to improve their shift next time and tendacies that were noticed. Konopka is very vocal on the bench. Constant communication on and off the ice. It was unbelievable how much Zack Smith was asking Konopka after they were out there killing penalties together on multiple occasions. Konopka is needed/wanted on this team by everybody within the Senators organization, everybody.
If he actually knows what he's talking about, then he'll be a great mentor in Bingo. Being very vocal is good quality to have but it doesn't replace talent. I'm sure guys who he is taking spots from don't want him there.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
Now, what was the question you so desperately (told me to come over and answer in another thread) wanted me to answer again?

How could anyone be pissed at the Sens for moving a player that didn't make their team? He made the team by signing the contract this offseason. Simple.
So because the Sens signed some scrub to a one year one way contract in July then send him to Bingo, nobody will ever sign in Ottawa as a free agent ever again? This isn't some big fish UFA. And NJD, NYR, Flyers have all buried contracts in the minors and players keep signing with them. As for the NHL is a ''big family'' from your other post --> all those hits to head and suspensions are signs of love and respect right? Players will go where the money is best and where they have the best chance of winning.

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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
and this one, And what about the message it sends to your young players?
Earn your stripes Kid. Any rookie that feels entitled, beat it. Simple.
What if he did earn it? Based on their pre-season play and camp, they should top 6 forwards. Now you turn around and tell them there not even top 13 and aren't going to be playing in the NHL because of some no talent scrubs? If Da Costa played like an AHLer and felt entitled, then yes beat it. Not the case.

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Old
10-02-2011, 01:11 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Nail2012 View Post
This. Except I think Konopka knows he isn't competing in the top 9. He knows his role is 4th line center, bottom 3, that's it, that's all. LOL.

Konopka is a better player than Winchester is anyway, at this point in their careers, for the role being requested of them both IMO.
Winchester gets a bad rap, the guy is on pace for about 19 pts/year as a 4th line center all while get the least PP time per game of anyone on the team not named Brian Lee or Matt Carkner. He plays reasonable physical (101 hits last season, good for 5th on the team; only smith had less ice time of those ahead of him), albeit not consistently enough, and will occasionally drop the mitts, or lay a big check.

The only things Konopka can say he has over Winchester is fighting and Leadership. They are similar in faceoffs, hitting, and PK but Winchester destroys in offensive abilities, where he doubles Konopka's output.

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10-02-2011, 01:14 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
He played 156 games in the last 2 seasons, 195 total. Not sure why you keep saying fringe player. This guy is perfect for the 13th forward position, just like Winchester. You won't hurt his development by sitting him, and he won't hurt the team playing in the bottom 6.

As far as 14 better forwards, he isn't competing with a lot of them. You keep bringing up that he takes away a spot for a better player in Da Costa, but in reality, Zibanejad, and Regin would be the ones taking away that spot from Da Costa. Konopka is only competing with guys in line for the bottom 6 center positions; Smith, Wincester, maybe Regin. Regin can slide over to the wing if necessary.

Not sure why you're so anxious to have one of long term prospects sit as the 13th man, unless you think Winchester will always be healthy, or want to put our skill guys on the 4th line.
Absolutely agree with the bolded. But the rest of the post is

He is a fringe NHLer because he has no skill. Playing on the 4th line of two crappy teams and not getting re-signed by them is what I would call a fringe NHLer.

I posted my lines

Regin - Spezza - Condra
Greening - Zibanejad - Alfredsson
Filatov - Da Costa - Michalek
Foligno - Smith - Neil
Winchester, Butler

If that's what you call having Da Costa play on the 4th line or be the 13th forward, I don't know what to tell you. A team doesn't have to have 2 scoring lines and 2 grind lines.

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Old
10-02-2011, 01:19 PM
  #160
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10-02-2011, 01:24 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
I don't care about his play in the pre-season. As you mentioned he is a veteran. He is what he is. What I do care about is Da Costa and Zibanejad proving they are better players, and that they would help the team more. And don't say Konopka has a specific 4th line role --> Foligno/Greening/Condra - Smith - Neil is a fine 4th line.
It's great that you can put together a strong 4th line with guys who will probably be on the 3rd line, but the point is that Da'Costa can't play on the 3rd or 4th lines. His is Top six or AHL.

This is why Konopka isn't really competing with Da'Costa. You might be able to get away with suggesting he could push a more deserving guy like Zibanejad out of the line up, because he could play in that bottom six, but not Da'Costa.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Da'Costa, and would love to see him stick with the team, and I'm indifferent with Konopka, I just don't see one being a threat to the other.

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10-02-2011, 01:25 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Absolutely agree with the bolded. But the rest of the post is

He is a fringe NHLer because he has no skill. Playing on the 4th line of two crappy teams and not getting re-signed by them is what I would call a fringe NHLer.

I posted my lines

Regin - Spezza - Condra
Greening - Zibanejad - Alfredsson
Filatov - Da Costa - Michalek
Foligno - Smith - Neil
Winchester, Butler

If that's what you call having Da Costa play on the 4th line or be the 13th forward, I don't know what to tell you. A team doesn't have to have 2 scoring lines and 2 grind lines.
Your first line is a joke right?

Eidt; Sorry if that comes off harsh not my intention, just my initial reaction, but you have an under achiever and a rookie on the first line, two rookies on the second line, and a rookie centering your third line. I understand that you think some people are overvaluing experience, but your severely undervaluing it.

Filatov and Da'Costa are not third line material. They aren't going to be able to play a shut down role, and won't be able to make the lack of offense on the first two lines.

Anyhow, just my opinion. I guess if you think we can survive spreading out the offence over three lines then maybe we can't fit Konopka on the 4th line. But to me it looks like your looking to fail for Nail.


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Old
10-02-2011, 01:26 PM
  #163
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It's great that you can put together a strong 4th line with guys who will probably be on the 3rd line, but the point is that Da'Costa can't play on the 3rd or 4th lines. His is Top six or AHL.

This is why Konopka isn't really competing with Da'Costa. You might be able to get away with suggesting he could push a more deserving guy like Zibanejad out of the line up, because he could play in that bottom six, but not Da'Costa.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Da'Costa, and would love to see him stick with the team, and I'm indifferent with Konopka, I just don't see one being a threat to the other.
But why can't he play on the 3rd line? Look at Buffalo. Cup contender with three scoring lines. We can call it the 2nd 2nd line if you want.

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10-02-2011, 01:28 PM
  #164
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Your first line is a joke right?
Or insert Butler instead of Condra, or put Condra on the fourth line and promote Foligno. Or put Foligno on the 3rd or 2nd line and promote Filatov or Greening. Point is, lots of possibilities with Da Costa as 3C.

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10-02-2011, 01:46 PM
  #165
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But why can't he play on the 3rd line? Look at Buffalo. Cup contender with three scoring lines. We can call it the 2nd 2nd line if you want.
We don't currently have their depth. We had the second lowest goals/g last season for a reason, they had the ninth highest.

Spreading offense that thin won't fix anything in my opinion.

Anyhow, hopefully we'll have some guys surprise, but if pre-season is any indication, we will be a low scoring team again this year.

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10-02-2011, 02:22 PM
  #166
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But why can't he play on the 3rd line? Look at Buffalo. Cup contender with three scoring lines. We can call it the 2nd 2nd line if you want.
I agree, why does everyone think we will lineup a top 6/bottom 6 role...were not the Leafs.

What lineup would you rather have?

Michalek Spezza Butler
Filatov Regin Alfredsson
Greening Smith Condra
Foligno Konopka(Winchester) Neil

OR

Greening -Spezza-Butler
Filatov-Zibanejad-Alfie
Michalek-Da Costa(Regin)-Condra
Foligno-Smith-Neil
Konopka Winchester

I know what line-up I would much rather and win us more games imo.

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10-02-2011, 02:31 PM
  #167
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I think we can all agree that Zibanejad has a future in the NHL. Spezza is here long term it seems. And Da Costa has shown to me that he can and will be an NHLer. His playmaking will make him a good player. All three are centres. While Zibanejad could conceivably be moved to the wing at some point, I think you'd rather develop him as a centre. So if all three are centres, and all three are in our future, people are going to have to wrap their heads around the idea of one of them playing on the third line. Even if they don't fit the "bottom 6" designation.

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10-02-2011, 02:51 PM
  #168
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I agree, why does everyone think we will lineup a top 6/bottom 6 role...were not the Leafs.

What lineup would you rather have?

Michalek Spezza Butler
Filatov Regin Alfredsson
Greening Smith Condra
Foligno Konopka(Winchester) Neil

OR

Greening -Spezza-Butler
Filatov-Zibanejad-Alfie
Michalek-Da Costa(Regin)-Condra
Foligno-Smith-Neil
Konopka Winchester

I know what line-up I would much rather and win us more games imo.
Line up 2 looks like it will have 19000 + fans screaming at the defensive errors it is bound to make. I think lineup one will have a better chance of keeping the puck out of the net.

Rookies make mistakes, especially on the defensive side of the ledger. A top six with 3 rookies (if you count Filatov, not sure if he counts) is going to be a gong show, and that's not even counting Butler.

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10-02-2011, 02:59 PM
  #169
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The superiority complex is really annoying.
It's only annoying when he's actually superior to you. (He is).

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10-02-2011, 03:03 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
We don't currently have their depth. We had the second lowest goals/g last season for a reason, they had the ninth highest.

Spreading offense that thin won't fix anything in my opinion.

Anyhow, hopefully we'll have some guys surprise, but if pre-season is any indication, we will be a low scoring team again this year.
I don't disagree that we'll be a low scoring team this year. But having Da Costa in the lineup instead of Konopka helps in that regard whether you want to admit it or not.

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Line up 2 looks like it will have 19000 + fans screaming at the defensive errors it is bound to make. I think lineup one will have a better chance of keeping the puck out of the net.

Rookies make mistakes, especially on the defensive side of the ledger. A top six with 3 rookies (if you count Filatov, not sure if he counts) is going to be a gong show, and that's not even counting Butler.
Disagree. The lineups are practically the same except Smith is pushed down a slot.

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10-02-2011, 03:05 PM
  #171
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It's only annoying when he's actually superior to you. (He is).
Still, he shouldn't call out people for their uneducated posts unless they are trolling.

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10-02-2011, 03:13 PM
  #172
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Still, he shouldn't call out people for their uneducated posts unless they are trolling.
Time to bust out the kid gloves.

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10-02-2011, 03:20 PM
  #173
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Lineup #1

Greening-Spezza-Filatov
Michalek-DaCosta/Zibanejad-Alfredsson
Foligno-Regin-Butler
Smith-Kenopka-Neil
Condra/Winchester

Phillips-Lee
Kuba-Karlsson
Cowen-Gonchar
Carkner

Anderson
Auld

Lineup #2

Greening-Spezza-Filatov
Michalek-DaCosta/Zibanejad-Alfredsson
Foligno-Regin-Butler
Condra-Smith-Neil
Kenopka/Winchester

Phillips-Lee
Cowen-Karlsson
Carkner-Gonchar
Kuba

Anderson
Auld

#1 plays 2/3 of games, #2 plays 1/3 of games.



Note: Zibanejad gets his 9 games, Rundblad is in Bingo or back to Sweden if it his preference.

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10-02-2011, 03:27 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
I don't disagree that we'll be a low scoring team this year. But having Da Costa in the lineup instead of Konopka helps in that regard whether you want to admit it or not.



Disagree. The lineups are practically the same except Smith is pushed down a slot.
I think spreading the offense so thin may lead to less scoring as our top line will not be much of a threat. I don't think Da'Costa bringing up the third lines scoring, which he probably would do, will balance the ledger.

With regards to the line-ups, my point is that there is a rookie on each of the top 3 lines, and not much of a defensive conscience to line 1. That would lead to a lot of turnovers, and some scrambly play in our end IMO.

By keeping Michalek and Regin over Zibanejad and Greening, you greatly increase the defensive responsibility of the top 2 lines.

BTW, to say the biggest difference is smith moving from 3rd to fourth line center when it has Michalek dropping from 1st line to third is amusing.

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10-02-2011, 03:37 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I think spreading the offense so thin may lead to less scoring as our top line will not be much of a threat. I don't think Da'Costa bringing up the third lines scoring, which he probably would do, will balance the ledger.

With regards to the line-ups, my point is that there is a rookie on each of the top 3 lines, and not much of a defensive conscience to line 1. That would lead to a lot of turnovers, and some scrambly play in our end IMO.

By keeping Michalek and Regin over Zibanejad and Greening, you greatly increase the defensive responsibility of the top 2 lines.

BTW, to say the biggest difference is smith moving from 3rd to fourth line center when it has Michalek dropping from 1st line to third is amusing.
Again I disagree. Greening and Zibanejad are fine defensive players. Going from Michalek and Regin to them isn't a huge downgrade.

Michalek to third line in those lineups is a non-issue. He's never clicked with Spezza and will probably score almost as much on the third line (especially with Da Costa), while Greening increases his production on line 1. Do you really think that would hurt the team offensively?

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