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Your 2011-2012 St. Louis Blues part 2

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Old
12-31-2011, 11:20 AM
  #151
PocketNines
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Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
I know I am in the minority here, but I think Halak has more potential to be the team's #1 long term. He played great again last night.
He made a lot of strong stops after the softie. The team should have won that game for him.

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12-31-2011, 11:20 AM
  #152
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I doubt Stewart will ever score more than 20 with a true playmaking center. He's a decent player, but nothing special. He just doesn't fit the 2 way style of this team. I wouldn't trade him in a package for a top pairing dman yet because our top 9 is a little thin, especially with the uncertainty of AMac.

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12-31-2011, 11:22 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
He made a lot of strong stops after the softie. The team should have won that game for him.


I don't even blame him for the softie. It was a terrible defensive play all around.

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12-31-2011, 11:59 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
I know I am in the minority here, but I think Halak has more potential to be the team's #1 long term. He played great again last night.
Thank you! I was beginning to think I was the only one who actually thought that.

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12-31-2011, 12:22 PM
  #155
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I'm just confused about the basis for the opinion. Compared with Elliott:

– He's smaller.
– He has a bad glove hand.
– He has worse rebound control.
– He is out of position more often.
– He works less hard in practice.

This is why I don't get the more potential idea. They're the same age and drafted in nearly identical spots. Halak has one thing over Elliott and that's having stolen two playoff series against much superior teams on his resume. If you had no idea what each were paid or that Elliott had done that in 2010 there wouldn't even be a controversy about who's the primary starter.

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12-31-2011, 01:20 PM
  #156
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Right now, I greatly prefer Elliott but Halak hasn't been bad either...although his weaknesses are still pretty apparent most nights. The problem is that I think it's very likely the Blues lose Elliott this summer. Unless he has a horrible 2nd half, some team is going to offer him starter money and more importantly, and starting role. With Halak, the Blues can't offer him that, especially the undisputed #1 role he could get somewhere else. The only way I see the Blues being able to keep Elliott is if they're able to trade Halak first but I don't see that as very likely at all. I don't see teams all too willing to take on Halak's contract and they'll know that if they want a goalie, they can just wait a bit longer and get a crack at Elliott without having to trading anything away to get him.

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12-31-2011, 01:36 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I'm just confused about the basis for the opinion. Compared with Elliott:

– He's smaller.
– He has a bad glove hand.
– He has worse rebound control.
– He is out of position more often.
– He works less hard in practice.

This is why I don't get the more potential idea. They're the same age and drafted in nearly identical spots. Halak has one thing over Elliott and that's having stolen two playoff series against much superior teams on his resume. If you had no idea what each were paid or that Elliott had done that in 2010 there wouldn't even be a controversy about who's the primary starter.


I think Halak has quicker reflexes. I think Elliot plays the angles good and is in good position, but I think most of his success is due to the Blues system. There was a few games where he didn't any real scoring chances. Mostly perimeter shots and low percentage shots. I am knocking him at all, I really like him. I actually love the 2 goalie system. I feel the Blues strong goal tending this year has been one of the keys to their success so far. Great defense and goal tending is becoming this teams identity, along with tough, physical, 2 way play. That is a good formula for the playoffs.

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12-31-2011, 03:05 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
I know I am in the minority here, but I think Halak has more potential to be the team's #1 long term. He played great again last night.
I agree with you. I'd personally rather have Halak locked up for the next two years than Elliott. I know that probably sounds crazy, but I'm still not 100% sold on Elliott. I think he will come back down to earth a bit (if he hasn't started to already). I'm really happy with how well he's playing, but I'm not ready to let go of Halak and depend on Elliott as the clear cut #1.

I also think that Blues fans in general give more leeway to Elliott when it comes to "bad goals". I guess it's understandable because the fanbase is much more frustrated with Halak. But if Halak had let in some of the bad goals that Elliott has let in this season (Del Zotto goal against NYR, McLeod goal against COL), then I think that he would get more crap for them than Elliott got. It reminds me of Jackman and how he can make the exact same mistake as any other defenseman but get five times the vitrol for it. I think Halak is just one of the whipping boys on the Blues right now and every mistake he makes is looked at under a magnifying glass. My opinion, anyway.


I really would like to see the Blues reach 50 points in 41 games. They would need four points in four games against Detroit, Phoenix, Edmonton, and Colorado. It won't be easy, but I think (and hope) they can win two of the four. The past few games have been disappointing and I hope they aren't starting to slide a bit.

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12-31-2011, 04:34 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Linus View Post
I agree with you. I'd personally rather have Halak locked up for the next two years than Elliott. I know that probably sounds crazy, but I'm still not 100% sold on Elliott. I think he will come back down to earth a bit (if he hasn't started to already). I'm really happy with how well he's playing, but I'm not ready to let go of Halak and depend on Elliott as the clear cut #1.

I also think that Blues fans in general give more leeway to Elliott when it comes to "bad goals". I guess it's understandable because the fanbase is much more frustrated with Halak. But if Halak had let in some of the bad goals that Elliott has let in this season (Del Zotto goal against NYR, McLeod goal against COL), then I think that he would get more crap for them than Elliott got. It reminds me of Jackman and how he can make the exact same mistake as any other defenseman but get five times the vitrol for it. I think Halak is just one of the whipping boys on the Blues right now and every mistake he makes is looked at under a magnifying glass. My opinion, anyway.


I really would like to see the Blues reach 50 points in 41 games. They would need four points in four games against Detroit, Phoenix, Edmonton, and Colorado. It won't be easy, but I think (and hope) they can win two of the four. The past few games have been disappointing and I hope they aren't starting to slide a bit.
Definitely the minority opinion and correctly so. LOL Elliott with the bad goals??! The bad goals this season have been overwhelmingly surrendered by Halak, not Elliott. Halak had a bad goal last night and also in his previous start against Dallas. That's just been it – Elliott is so rarely allowing bad goals between the two goalies that he's won nearly every fan over. Yes, if the situation were reversed and it were Elliott letting in the bad goals and not Halak, fans would be on Elliott and not Halak. A tautology.

Also I have higher aspirations for the Blues' next four games than three points, especially with three home games and opponents besides Detroit the Blues should be better than. They're at +10 (21-11-something) and 50 in 41 is +9.

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12-31-2011, 05:13 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Definitely the minority opinion and correctly so. LOL Elliott with the bad goals??! The bad goals this season have been overwhelmingly surrendered by Halak, not Elliott. Halak had a bad goal last night and also in his previous start against Dallas. That's just been it – Elliott is so rarely allowing bad goals between the two goalies that he's won nearly every fan over. Yes, if the situation were reversed and it were Elliott letting in the bad goals and not Halak, fans would be on Elliott and not Halak. A tautology.

Also I have higher aspirations for the Blues' next four games than three points, especially with three home games and opponents besides Detroit the Blues should be better than. They're at +10 (21-11-something) and 50 in 41 is +9.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, because I agree with what you said. I know that Halak has let in more bad goals than Elliott this season and I never said otherwise... if you look at Halak's first 6-7 starts, I'd say a very good number were goals he could've or should've had. I think that a lot of his bad goals come from being too deep in the crease or having too slow of a reaction time. But I think the play of the two has been pretty equal as of late.

My point is that I think the fanbase (and I'm not speaking about those just on HFboards, but the entire fanbase) is getting awfully close to electing Elliott to savior status, which I think is unwise. When you have fans calling in to a postgame show saying we should've put Elliott in for the shootout, I think that's a great example of fans seeing what they want to see and putting Elliott on a bit of a pedestal. Halak wasn't the reason the Blues lost last night, and still people want to switch him out for Elliott, who actually has a worse career save percentage in the shootouts.


Well I think the Blues are better than Edmonton and Colorado for sure, but look at the past two games against Colorado. I do think that the Blues should win against the Avalanche, but for some reason they're tough for the Blues to beat. And Edmonton played well against us last game, although they've definitely cooled down after their hot start.

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12-31-2011, 06:03 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
He's not a #2 center the way he plays now and plugging him in there again next year is alarming to me.

As for telling me to "drop the Berglund is a #3 center crusade," it's sweet of you to tell me what to do but no thanks.
Berglund has been the least of the problems on the 2nd line this year. You can't make linemates better that won't win a board battle, go to the front of the net, get themselves open, or make stupid drop pass after stupid drop pass. Despite centering a black hole of offensive effort from Stewart, plus random winger of the day, he is a whopping three points outside of the top 60 in scoring for centers yet again. I'm sorry but it's not the least bit alarming for anyone to pencil him in as a #2 center because that's the level he's played at in his career.

Your comment was asinine and it fully deserved to be called out.

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12-31-2011, 06:26 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Berglund has been the least of the problems on the 2nd line this year. You can't make linemates better that won't win a board battle, go to the front of the net, get themselves open, or make stupid drop pass after stupid drop pass. Despite centering a black hole of offensive effort from Stewart, plus random winger of the day, he is a whopping three points outside of the top 60 in scoring for centers yet again. I'm sorry but it's not the least bit alarming for anyone to pencil him in as a #2 center because that's the level he's played at in his career.

Your comment was asinine and it fully deserved to be called out.
Obviously you think 16 points in 37 games is fine. I don't and you're in the minority. "Called out." Pfft. Whatever, sparky.

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12-31-2011, 09:20 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Obviously you think 16 points in 37 games is fine. I don't and you're in the minority. "Called out." Pfft. Whatever, sparky.
He never said that 16 points at this point was fine, he made a very good point that Berglund has consistently been the best player on that second line. While he should be finding a way to finish, his linemates should be too. Berglund has setup his line up with far more chances than vice versa, and something that's being forgotten with the amount of hate he's been getting lately.

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12-31-2011, 09:44 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
He never said that 16 points at this point was fine, he made a very good point that Berglund has consistently been the best player on that second line. While he should be finding a way to finish, his linemates should be too. Berglund has setup his line up with far more chances than vice versa, and something that's being forgotten with the amount of hate he's been getting lately.
Saying that Berglund has been better than Stewart is saying almost nothing. It goes without saying he trails Perron by a huge gulf. Perron hasn't been back the whole season obviously.

His main point was to call criticism of Berglund asinine. But it isn't at all. It's pure fiction to suggest Berglund's just a victim of scrubs paying around him. Berglund himself does exactly what I described with the way he plays in the offensive zone. He plays with his back to the net shielding defenders from the puck. All this does is keep a cycle going a little longer but he's either too timid to try and turn around and attack the net or he simply can't do it except rarely. He turns so slowly that another player can collapse on him and take the puck away as soon as they see him try to turn. If by some miracle he turns and actually gets a shot away his accuracy is terrible. All of this criticism has nothing to do with other players, sorry.

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01-22-2012, 03:42 AM
  #165
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I would like to see Hitch really juggle the 2-4th lines and play Perron-Backes-Oshie on the top line.

Just out of curiosity what would people do to the lineup to get guys going?

Assuming Steen doesn't play in Detroit and Pittsburg...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves
D'Agostini-Arnott-Stewart
Crombeen-Nichol-Langenbrunner
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Langenbrunner
D'Agostini-Arnott-Reaves
Crombeen-Nichol-Stewart

If Steen plays...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Berglund-Reaves
Sobotka-Arnott-Stewart
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Arnott-Stewart
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner

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01-22-2012, 04:43 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Celtic Note View Post
I would like to see Hitch really juggle the 2-4th lines and play Perron-Backes-Oshie on the top line.

Just out of curiosity what would people do to the lineup to get guys going?

Assuming Steen doesn't play in Detroit and Pittsburg...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves
D'Agostini-Arnott-Stewart
Crombeen-Nichol-Langenbrunner
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Langenbrunner
D'Agostini-Arnott-Reaves
Crombeen-Nichol-Stewart

If Steen plays...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Berglund-Reaves
Sobotka-Arnott-Stewart
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Arnott-Stewart
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner
Dags looked somewhat better tonight. He actually shot the puck when he had the chance a few times. Still, I'd like Sobotka bumped up and, as long as Steen's not ready to play, put him back on IR and recall Grachev.

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Stewart
Grachev/D'Agostini-Arnott-Langenbrunner
Reaves-Nichol-D'Agostini/Crombeen

Another option is to give D'Agostini a bigger scoring assignment with the thought that he'll be more useful there.

Sobotka-Backes-D'Agostini
Perron-Berglund-Oshie
Reaves-Arnott-Stewart
Crombeen/Grachev-Nichol-Langenbrunner

Those aren't going to happen, but as long as we're talking about doing something different, I'd like to see some of that. And if Steen is back soon:

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Berglund-Stewart (haven't seen this line together this year, and it baffles me)
Sobotka-Arnott-D'Agostini (I prefer seeing D'Agostini on more skilled lines or benched to wake him up)
Reaves-Nichol-Langenbrunner


Last edited by rumrokh: 01-22-2012 at 05:11 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old
01-22-2012, 04:58 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic Note View Post
I would like to see Hitch really juggle the 2-4th lines and play Perron-Backes-Oshie on the top line.

Just out of curiosity what would people do to the lineup to get guys going?

Assuming Steen doesn't play in Detroit and Pittsburg...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves(No way Reaves plays on your top 6...no dice)
D'Agostini-Arnott-Stewart(like to see this line...I think Stewart could possibly benefit from playing along Arnott)
Crombeen-Nichol-Langenbrunner(Solid)
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka-Berglund-Langenbrunner(I'd swap Sobotka with D'Ags, but I think Berglund could definitely benifit from a RW playmaker)
D'Agostini-Arnott-Reaves
Crombeen-Nichol-Stewart (^Switch Stewart and Reaves)

If Steen plays...

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Berglund-Reaves(Again no way Reaves is promoted to top 6, especially w/ Steener back)
Sobotka-Arnott-Stewart
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner(^Swap D'Ags and Sobotka)
(Reaves and Langenbrunner would switch off and on throughout the game)

or

Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Arnott-Stewart
Sobotka-Berglund-Reaves
D'Agostini-Nichol-Langenbrunner(^Again I'd Swap D'Ags and Sobo, and Lang and Reaves)
Comments in Bold.

Here's what I'd roll with..

W/O Steen
Perron-Backes-Oshie
D'Ags-Arnott-Stewart
Sobotka-Berglund-Lang
Crombeen-Nichol-Reaves

With Steen
Perron-Backes-Oshie
Steen-Berglund-Lang
D'Ags-Arnott-Stewart
Sobotka-Nichol-Reaves

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Old
03-13-2012, 12:32 PM
  #168
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This stat is somewhat unreliable but interesting

GP Hits
Backes 70 199
Polak 70 159
Reaves 51 142
Sobotka 61 127
Porter 43 111
Oshie 68 103
Jackman 69 84
Stewart 67 81
Berglund 70 78
Nichol 70 77
Pietrangelo 69 68
Shattenkirk 69 60
Langenbrunner 58 57
Colaiacovo 54 56
Russell 36 48
D’Agostini 52 45
Grachev 26 23
Arnott 63 22
Steen 36 19
Crombeen 35 19
Perron 45 18
Cole 22 12
McDonald 19 3
Huskins 17 2

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