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Gunnarsson to NYR?

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Old
09-27-2011, 10:56 PM
  #151
SomebodySaveKreider
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Would love Gunnarsson on this team, I'm just not sure we'd be willing to deal the pieces it would take to get him.

The defense, though young and talented, could still use some help.

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09-27-2011, 11:24 PM
  #152
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The difference between Dubinsky and Callahan is simple. Both arrive at the same place slight differently. Dubinsky gets there through a bunch of skill with a healthy dose of hard work. Callahan gets there through a bunch of hard work with a healthy dose of skill. Dubinsky is skill first, Callahan is work ethic first. Neither way is better or worse than the other.

As to why I would NEVER trade Dubinsky for Kulemin: Dubinsky LOVES being a Ranger. The risk of getting Kulemin-uninterested is not worth the slight, and only slight, upgrade in talent he represents.

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09-27-2011, 11:32 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The difference between Dubinsky and Callahan is simple. Both arrive at the same place slight differently. Dubinsky gets there through a bunch of skill with a healthy dose of hard work. Callahan gets there through a bunch of hard work with a healthy dose of skill. Dubinsky is skill first, Callahan is work ethic first. Neither way is better or worse than the other.
THIS. IMO they are pretty comparable players. callahan is the better complete all around player (best we have on the team) while dubi has more natural offensive talent. i wouldn't be so shocked if i or any1 else thinks different at the end of the season if callahan took his offensive game to another level this season. so far every year the offensive side of the game for him he has gotten better from instincts to puck handling to shooting ability. everything has improved every year. this year i wanna see consistency from dubinsky and i feel hes ready to step up to the plate with higher expectation levels for himself and the organization as a whole. im sure he knows he has to take his game to the next level with more consistency. i think at one point last year we thought he was gonna have 40 goals. i would just like to see him net 30 for this year and wouldn't be crazy to assume he has set a personal goal for himself to hit the 30 goal mark.

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09-28-2011, 12:08 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Yes! Big influence on my love of hockey, always been a big fan of his. You're only the 3rd to guess who that is thus far.
Thought it was Loob. Built up his career in Calgary, having some good years just under a point per game, and then exploded in 88, cooled down a little in 89 and won the cup, and then went back home to Sweden. It's like once he accomplished his goal, that was it.

Good for him though. He was a little Swedish dynamo on the ice.

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"FAR" better? I don't know...neither are particularly all-star caliber passers, but Dubinsky gets by on that one because of his excellent puck handling skills and board work. Neither have great vision, but given Dubinsky's much superior puck carrying skills, it makes him seem like he's a better "passer" when he, on the whole, creates that entire space with his boardwork/etc...which Callahan does as well. He's not a very good puck handler, but his anticipation and ability to ALWAYS make the right play opens up a ton of space in both the offensive and defensive zones. He's the finisher, Dubinsky is the playmaker. Dubinsky is definitely a better passer, but I don't think he's "significantly" superior.
To me, Dubinsky wins this one by a landslide because of his puck handling abilities and ability to protect the puck, and his tendency to pass more than Callahan does. Callahan makes decent plays, but he's more of a shoot first guy if you ask me. Reminds me of a smaller, quicker version of Adam Graves.

Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

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Regarding goal scoring, just looking at last year, you had Dubinsky put up 24 goals, 5 of them being empty netters. Callahan put up 23 in 60 games, none of them empty netters. ENs "count" as goals, but they shouldn't be used in determining who is a better goal scorer. A roughly ~.33 GPG average is much better than a ~.20 GPG average. The only year Dubinsky was close to Callahan (in his 3 full years) was 09-10. In 08-09, Callahan put up 22 goals in 81 games, Dubinsky, 14 in 82.
If we're going to nitpick, the only reason Callahan broke 20 this year is because of that 4 goal game against the Flyers. I see Callahan as more of a goal scorer because he isn't a playmaking winger, but if you're going to take away from empty netters, mind you work still has to be done to score those, and sometimes more with the 6th player out on the ice, you don't always get the chance to score those.

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I'd say he more than 'edges him' in defensive play. Both are very good in their own zone, but Callahan is probably one of the 'top-10' or 'elite' defensive players in the league, while Dubinsky is more in the 'very good, but not quite elite' category. Callahan is a much, much smarter player than Dubinsky, a trait which leads to the answer of why Dubinsky can't maintain offensive consistency throughout the course of a full season.
Top-10? That's a stretch right there. Callahan isn't as good defensively as Datsyuk, Kesler, M. Richards, J. Staal, Zetterberg, Madden, Langenbrunner, Legwand (too many people overlook him because he plays in Nashville, but he's an excellent defensive center) Bolland, Toews...

I'd say he's on the level of Handzus, Bergeron, Kopitar, M. Koivu, Hanzal, etc, just outside of the top-10.

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By the way, over the last two seasons, Dubinsky has played 77+69 regular season games. Callahan, 79+60. Dubinsky only played 7 more games than Callahan overall; while I don't think saying that he plays somewhat of a self-destructive style, but I would argue that Dubinsky does as well. Callahan sustained both of his injuries last season after blocking a shot (Letang, Chara). Both players who shot the puck have very, very hard slapshots, particularly Chara. ANY player in either situation would have been injured if they were in that position, so I don't see how Callahan, thus far, has proven to be 'injury-prone' based on his somewhat unique style of play.
Callahan's much more of a shot-blocker than Dubinsky is. Both do it, but Callahan throws himself in front of shots from guys like Weber and Chara, and because of it is more prone to injury. His style of play isn't exactly "unique", it's a balls-to-the-wall approach, and because of it, he's more susceptible to injury, based on sheer logic and probability.

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I agree in the sense that he can put up more points, but there are two categories of offensive players -- consistently effective offensive players, and streaky offensive players. Callahan is a mix of both; he's always creating chances, but his finishing skills are inconsistent. Dubinsky CAN be a mix of both, but he sometimes starts to become ineffective in the offensive zone, waiting for the play to come to him instead of iniating when he should.
I completely agree.

Callahan will be the safer offensive bet to score 20/25 - 20/25 - 40/50, and Dubinsky will be a guy that can possibly go 25/30 - 25/30 - 50/60. You've gotta have both of those kinds of offensive players on your team. As streaky as he can be, you've gotta have a guy that can get hot and be very effective at the right time.

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09-28-2011, 01:21 AM
  #155
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There is nothing wrong with Gunnarsson, and he can even become a steady NHL D.

But, really, he is more of a 6-7 D right now, who down the road can become a avg top 4 D on a avg team.

I don't think the price for a D like him is a 3rd round pick. More like a 5th round pick. I mean, I would rather have Strålman who is on TO across the river -- and he could be had for free...

Like we have depth, sure give up some of that for Gunner, but definitely not along with a 2nd-3rd round pick...

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09-28-2011, 02:13 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The difference between Dubinsky and Callahan is simple. Both arrive at the same place slight differently. Dubinsky gets there through a bunch of skill with a healthy dose of hard work. Callahan gets there through a bunch of hard work with a healthy dose of skill. Dubinsky is skill first, Callahan is work ethic first. Neither way is better or worse than the other.
Dubinsky and Callahan rarely arrive at the same place. Callahan is a more efficient player than Dubinsky. He makes the right decision more often than Dubinsky. He's more consistent. He's more reliable in any situation. Callahan has better anticipation, reads plays better, displays better positioning. This doesn't mean that Dubinsky does these things poorly, because he doesn't. He's a good player, capable of at times being very good. But he's up against an elite thinker.

If they share a similar weakness, it's that they are both liable to attempt to do things beyond their capabilities. For Callahan, that means taking shots that he may not have much of a chance to score on, or even create a juicy rebound opportunity. For Dubinsky, it's attempting to dangle or pass in an especially creative fashion, while he simply isn't skilled enough to do these things.

The difference is that Callahan sins in this regard far less frequently than Dubinsky does, and that Callahan has become less of a liability as a shooter than Dubinsky has as a playmaker of the ilk that he attempts to emulate. Callahan takes those shots because this team has, until now, been highly lacking in offensive talent, and at the end of the day someone has to take shots, especially when good opportunities are as scarce as they are for a team with no playmakers. Dubinsky doesn't have to try to be as fancy as he does, and what he does can often result in a turnover and an odd man rush against.

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As to why I would NEVER trade Dubinsky for Kulemin: Dubinsky LOVES being a Ranger. The risk of getting Kulemin-uninterested is not worth the slight, and only slight, upgrade in talent he represents.
I have no problem with Dubinsky. He is what he is. It's not his fault the team hasn't had better offensive players. I like the guy, would have no problem seeing him with this team for a long time. Still, I couldn't not trade him for Kulemin. Kulemin is a lot like Callahan, almost as smart, but with the size of Dubinsky. I woudln't be too worried about alienating Kulemin, and considering the way he plays, there'd be no worried that he'd ever alienate the team, either. He's simply better than Dubinsky, and the difference is almost as big as the difference between Callahan and Dubinsky is, and that difference is a good deal more than slight, because I would never trade Callahan for a player like Dubinsky.

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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Top-10? That's a stretch right there. Callahan isn't as good defensively as Datsyuk, Kesler, M. Richards, J. Staal, Zetterberg, Madden, Langenbrunner, Legwand (too many people overlook him because he plays in Nashville, but he's an excellent defensive center) Bolland, Toews...

I'd say he's on the level of Handzus, Bergeron, Kopitar, M. Koivu, Hanzal, etc, just outside of the top-10.
He's a better defensive player than everyone in that second group except Koivu, and he's definitely better than Madden and Langenbrunner at this point in their careers, Legwand, and at least as good as Bolland. Callahan is one of the smartest players in the league. You can't overestimate how enormous of an advantage that is.

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Callahan's much more of a shot-blocker than Dubinsky is. Both do it, but Callahan throws himself in front of shots from guys like Weber and Chara, and because of it is more prone to injury. His style of play isn't exactly "unique", it's a balls-to-the-wall approach, and because of it, he's more susceptible to injury, based on sheer logic and probability.
He'll tone it down, and that doesn't mean that he'll be any worse of a player. In fact, he'll probably be a better and healthier one. He's too smart not to know that as he continues to get better as a player, he won't need to wear himself out so much physically because he can let his brains do even more work than they already do for him on the ice. Some of the blocked shots and hard hits in the corners will be replaced with a more finely attuned stick check (one that is already pretty phenomenal). He's also smart enough to know that this will extend his career.

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09-28-2011, 04:48 AM
  #157
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In a sense comparing Callahan with Dubinsky is like comparing apples and oranges.

Callahan plays a very very very simple game. Up and down his wing. Puts the puck on the net. Works hard. Block shots. Finnish checks. Natrually the more simple you play, the more simple it is to be consistent. To do the same thing shift after shift.

Dubinsky is a half talented player who's biggest strength really is the ability he has to break the pattern. Take the puck to the net from positions that is not expected. Stuff like that. Can be pretty nasty moves to with elbows and what not. Breaking the pattern is of course not easy to do on a regular basis...

Dubinsky also has a tendancy to manage himself. Like after his very first season in NY, were he fought alot, played pretty recklessly etc., he definitely tonned it done alot over the sumer and became a much lesser effective player. For example. He stopped grinding and tried to become a finesse player. Natrually, he could have ended up with alot of problems if he kept getting knocked out by the like of Luke Richardsson and co. But before his second year he told Brooks that he would cut down on fighting (adviseable) and obviously tryed to stay out of other dirty areas too (not adviseble).

Thats why I think Torts, and Slats, has somewhat of a probelm with him. That has carried in to contract negotiations etc. They have obviously not had a problem with lighting a fire under his rear.

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Old
09-28-2011, 05:06 AM
  #158
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Christensen and a late pick would be my offer, don't really understand why the leafs have Gunnarsson on the block, solid player with a great contract.

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09-28-2011, 05:25 AM
  #159
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Zherdev/Tyutin was need based, and honestly, Zherdev lead our team in scoring that year, and Tyutin has declined since his first year there. It's if anything, even.
Need based or not, we still gave up a solid top 4 dman for 1 year of an inconsistent scorer. That's a net loss no matter how you look at it. Columbus just re-upped Tyutin this summer, so I don't thing his play has fallen off all that much, if anything. He's still pretty young.

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Lisin/Korpikoski was meh for bleh. They got the better meh, we got bleh, oh well. It opened up the door for a guy like Boyle, who in the end = better than the both of them.
We lost the trade, plain and simple. Korpikoski had a decent year this past year, tied for 2nd on the team in goals, and he's still only 25. Meanwhile, Lisin played 1 year for us, when he wasn't scratched, and now is out of the league.

No matter how much value you place on Tyutin and Korpikoski, there can be no doubt that we got back less value in return. Whether or not we needed those players, or who we replaced them with, is irrelevant. We lost those trades.

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09-28-2011, 07:00 AM
  #160
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There is zero reason to trade Dubinsky.

Much less for some crap off the street of Toronto.

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09-28-2011, 07:18 AM
  #161
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I'm not going to get into this debate anymore but Callahan is being extremely overrated. He's a glorified grinder with good leadership.

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09-28-2011, 07:29 AM
  #162
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On Dubinsky :
Amazes me that Dubinsky name keeps getting brought up in trade rumors every year. Yet, ever year he gets better and has proven his worth maybe more than any other player on the club. And for a guy who came up with the club, that a *** breath of fresh air.

I still can't get past last years bafoon statements that they should move him for Cogliano. Who's it going to be this year?

On Gunnarson :
A trade for him accomplishes just waht? Im curious as to the logic here. I think I remember seeing it was a veteran defenseman that they were looking for. Correct me if im wrong, but Gunnarsson is still relatively young no? So, not that they should be against adding youth, but what is it accomplishing? Is he top 4? Would he challenege to be a top pairing guys making a Dan Girardi expendable? Or is he a bottom guy? I don't think he's a physical player correct?

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09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
  #163
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I actually think Sather is out there looking for a Dman but the bottom line is none of the top 12 F on the depth chart are being moved

They will offer Avery, Christensen, mid round picks and prospects on the bubble like Weise. They may move a guy like Kundratek given the depth in the system

No young guys that are close like Hagelin , Bourque, Erixon, McIlrath

So if an affordable option is out there for cheap pull the trigger. It gives more time for Erixon to pull a McD. Start in CT then come up later

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09-28-2011, 08:36 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
On Dubinsky :
Amazes me that Dubinsky name keeps getting brought up in trade rumors every year. Yet, ever year he gets better and has proven his worth maybe more than any other player on the club. And for a guy who came up with the club, that a *** breath of fresh air.

I still can't get past last years bafoon statements that they should move him for Cogliano. Who's it going to be this year?

On Gunnarson :
A trade for him accomplishes just waht? Im curious as to the logic here. I think I remember seeing it was a veteran defenseman that they were looking for. Correct me if im wrong, but Gunnarsson is still relatively young no? So, not that they should be against adding youth, but what is it accomplishing? Is he top 4? Would he challenege to be a top pairing guys making a Dan Girardi expendable? Or is he a bottom guy? I don't think he's a physical player correct?
Gunnarsson is a pretty solid all-around defenseman. I would say he would look good next to Sauer in the top-4, bump McDonagh down to the third pairing and let him play with Erixon or MDZ or whoever there. It creates a very nice amount of depth as McDonagh has proven he can play in the top-4 and log the minutes if there is an injury.

He can play both the PP and the PK but you are right, he isn't overly physical. Howvever, he can move the puck pretty well. Something missing in the Rangers current top-4.

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09-28-2011, 09:00 AM
  #165
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McCabe still jobless?

I wasn't his biggest supporter last year, but if he can be signed cheaply, why not. If he doesn't work out, waive him.

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09-28-2011, 09:05 AM
  #166
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McCabe still jobless?

I wasn't his biggest supporter last year, but if he can be signed cheaply, why not. If he doesn't work out, waive him.
Yeah, I have definitely thought about that a few times as well. I'm pretty sure there are at least 5 serviceable bottom pairing vets out there. Hell, Chris Chelios is ALWAYS available....

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09-28-2011, 09:12 AM
  #167
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Here are some veteran defenseman still UFA:

Paul Mara
Bryan McCabe
Craig Rivet
Steve Staios
Brett Lebda
Jason Strudwick
David Hale
Shane Hnidy

__________________

It's just pain.
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09-28-2011, 09:22 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Here are some veteran defenseman still UFA:

Paul Mara
Bryan McCabe
Craig Rivet
Steve Staios
Brett Lebda
Jason Strudwick
David Hale
Shane Hnidy
Eww. Maybe Brendan Bell is better then all of those players.....

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09-28-2011, 09:35 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Yeah, I have definitely thought about that a few times as well. I'm pretty sure there are at least 5 serviceable bottom pairing vets out there. Hell, Chris Chelios is ALWAYS available....
Lol. I remember every year we were supposed to trade for Chelios.

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09-28-2011, 09:41 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Here are some veteran defenseman still UFA:

Paul Mara
Bryan McCabe
Craig Rivet
Steve Staios
Brett Lebda
Jason Strudwick
David Hale
Shane Hnidy
There's no there there.

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09-28-2011, 09:48 AM
  #171
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Thinking EC and Chad Johnson for Gunnarsson.

We keep Weise, Kundratek
They're ok with EC and moving him makes spot for some of our cheaper, younger guys.
Johnson looking over his shoulder at Talbot, Stacjer, competes for backup for TML.

Yes? No?

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09-28-2011, 10:00 AM
  #172
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There's no there there.
Yup, agreed. Just throwing the names out there.

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09-28-2011, 10:03 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Thinking EC and Chad Johnson for Gunnarsson.

We keep Weise, Kundratek
They're ok with EC and moving him makes spot for some of our cheaper, younger guys.
Johnson looking over his shoulder at Talbot, Stacjer, competes for backup for TML.

Yes? No?
I have no problem moving either Weise or Kundratek for Gunnarsson. In all reality, we hope Kundratek can become what Gunnarrsson currently is. Weise is a spare part at this point. I love his hustle, but he doesn't bring anything we can't find for cheap elsewhere.

As far as your proposed deal, that's a no-brainer for us. But do either Christensen or Johnson crack the Leafs' lineup? Doubtful. They'd be better off getting picks back than those two.

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09-28-2011, 10:32 AM
  #174
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Crosby is the best defensive forward in the league. Don't kid yourselves.

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09-28-2011, 11:09 AM
  #175
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Crosby is the best defensive forward in the league. Don't kid yourselves.
you spelled Datsyuk wrong

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