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It was 39 Years Ago Today

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Old
09-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #51
Buck Aki Berg
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Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
The Cold War certainly was part of the atmosphere in which the Summit Series was played--the hype surrounding it--but its real significance was that for the first time a foreign team had dared to challenge Canada's supremacy in ice hockey, which was widely presumed and no doubt deserved although it had never been tested.

Before the Summit Series, Canada had not been represented in international play by a full team of NHL stars. Canada had been represented in international play--the world championships and the Olympic Games--by the winners of the Allan Cup, the senior amateur champions of Canada. Until the end of the 1950s, the Allan Cup winners almost always beat the Soviet Union. But during the 1960s, the Soviets began to win international competitions. It was assumed throughout Canada, though, that the Soviets would come a cropper if ever they met a team of NHL stars.

Canada approached the Summit Series with a great deal of arrogance. Most of the players were not in top shape since the series was played pre-season. It was a huge shock when the Soviets creamed Canada in the first game, played in the Montreal Forum, and when the Soviets finished the Canadian legs of the series with the advantage. Ultimately Canada barely edged the Soviets to win the series, but no longer could it be assumed that Canada was supreme in ice hockey.

A somewhat similar scenario occurred in basketball a few decades later on. The USA always sent a team of college all-stars to international competitions and nearly always won. Eventually the competition became stiffer and the USA sent the fabled Dream Team to the Olympic Games in Barcelona in 1992. That team was all-conquering, of course. But a decade later there came a rude awakening. Even a team of NBA professionals could not always be counted on to win in international competition, and the USA has had to up its selection procedures and its preparations. No longer is a USA victory assured in international competition.

I think it's remarkable that Canada, with a population of just a little more than 30 million, not only remains competitive with the much bigger hockey nations, the USA and Russia, but also is still usually capable of beating them. Canada's head start advantage disappeared long ago. But it still has the advantages of the best ice hockey league in the world, the NHL, and the extreme popularity of ice hockey in Canada. I don't have anything to back it up, but I would think that a much higher percentage of Canada's best athletes choose ice hockey over other sports, while a much higher percentage of Russian and American athletes choose other sports over ice hockey, and that compensates in large part for the population differential.
Believe me - I know the story. Every late-September newscasters, sportswriters and people my parents' age (but not my parents; they friggin' hate hockey) get all misty-eyed about our courageous victory over the big bad Russians and how it made baby Jesus smile. It's still very much a you-had-to-be-there-to-appreciate-it moment

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09-29-2011, 12:05 PM
  #52
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Crosby's goal was bigger....















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09-29-2011, 12:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I don't think a 36-year-old defenceman on a rec hockey team in Central Butte, Saskatchewan, whose highest level of hockey was bantam house, is going to be a factor in international tournaments. I doubt a 59-year-old goalie on the old-timer team in Avonlea, Saskatchewan, is going to be factor, either. And I don't think the hundreds of registered five-year-olds playing Timbits initiation hockey in Regina will be suiting up for international touranments any time soon...A lot of the registered players in Canada are initiation and novice players who will never play the game at any sort of a high level; a lot of them will leave the game after novice hockey, and merely enjoy the sport as fans.
The point is: Canada's depth is unmatched. It seems like nearly everybody in Canada is playing hockey.

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09-29-2011, 12:25 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
They are all part of the grass roots of hockey. Each grows the game in their own fashion, becoming part of the culture, the tradition that perpetuates the game.
That's not the point. The point is using a numerical argument when the numbers themselves do not necessarily use the same bases. Apples to oranges.

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09-29-2011, 12:48 PM
  #55
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1972 Retrospective

The impact of the 1972 Summit Series gets trivialized by looking at statistics, incidents, and short term events. An overview follows.

The Main Participants
Canada. Team Canada 1972 was cobbled together by the weaker administrators, coaches, scouts in the NHL from the era. Harry Sinden & John Ferguson vs Scotty Bowman & Sam Pollock. Say no more.

Poorly prepared pre-tournament, poor game management, poor roster selections for each game - Gilbert Perreault virtually ignored. That the team won is a tribute to the players who managed to come together and overcome obstacles.

Post tournament. The brighter and better hockey minds in Canada took over and the situation moved forward. The infra structure - arenas and facilities were built at a greater rate. Coaching and coaching clinics were emphasized with an increasing focus on technology. Off ice and on ice training was improved. Every aspect of minor hockey up to the pros was analyzed and improved.

The Soviets. 1972 version of the Soviet team suffered from weak coaching and management as well. Better prepared - it was obvious that they had scouted the NHL for a while, they still failed to execute during game situations. Poor line match-ups, player selection, game management.

Post tournament. Floundered for a few seasons but returned to dominance in Europe under the totalitarian guidance of Tikhanov.

The infra structure at the grass roots level has not kept pace.Access to hockey is limited, arenas and facilities are lacking at the grass roots level.

Quality and quantity of coaching has not kept pace. Russia still produces an occasional brilliant forward but no goalies that rank with Tretiak or elite defensemen like Vasiliev or Fetisov. Point could be made that Tretiak via his books, hockey school appearances and coaching clinic appearances made a much greater impact on goaltending outside the Soviet Union or Russia than internally.No signs of sustainable growth. While the KHL looks like it might have legs, little is happening at the grass roots level.

The main negative of the series was that elite players were not supported by elite coaching, administrators and so one down the line.

The Others

Sweden. Obtained great benefits from their limited exposure to the NHL. Realized that they were much closer to the hockey elite than previously given credit, the Swedes carefully improved all elements of their hockey program. Arenas and facilities were built, coaching and training methods were improved across the board to the point that they are major concerns at various elite levels with a very positive future.

Czechoslovakia. Learned and improved short term. By 1976 and the late seventies looked very promising but in retrospect it was a generational spike. The split into two republics - Czech and Slovak did not help.

Infra structure has not kept pace, neither has coaching. A few excellent players have been produced but not nearly as many as expected. The future does not look to good either.

Finland. Nice progress similar to the Swedes. Worked very hard at developing a complete hockey program. Infra structure, coaching. Future looks promising.

USA. Best job of the major hockey playing countries at building an infra structure to grow and sustain hockey at all levels - coaching,administrators, referees,etc. Very promising future, especially if the USHL and the pre university hockey continues to grow. Major edge over Canada presently is the integration of the high schools and prep schools into the hockey mainstream

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09-29-2011, 01:07 PM
  #56
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Nice post, 1958

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09-29-2011, 01:15 PM
  #57
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Thank You

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Nice post, 1958
Thank you.

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Old
09-29-2011, 03:07 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The impact of the 1972 Summit Series gets trivialized by looking at statistics, incidents, and short term events. An overview follows.

The Main Participants
Canada. Team Canada 1972 was cobbled together by the weaker administrators, coaches, scouts in the NHL from the era. Harry Sinden & John Ferguson vs Scotty Bowman & Sam Pollock. Say no more.

Poorly prepared pre-tournament, poor game management, poor roster selections for each game - Gilbert Perreault virtually ignored. That the team won is a tribute to the players who managed to come together and overcome obstacles.

Post tournament. The brighter and better hockey minds in Canada took over and the situation moved forward. The infra structure - arenas and facilities were built at a greater rate. Coaching and coaching clinics were emphasized with an increasing focus on technology. Off ice and on ice training was improved. Every aspect of minor hockey up to the pros was analyzed and improved.

The Soviets. 1972 version of the Soviet team suffered from weak coaching and management as well. Better prepared - it was obvious that they had scouted the NHL for a while, they still failed to execute during game situations. Poor line match-ups, player selection, game management.

Post tournament. Floundered for a few seasons but returned to dominance in Europe under the totalitarian guidance of Tikhanov.

The infra structure at the grass roots level has not kept pace.Access to hockey is limited, arenas and facilities are lacking at the grass roots level.

Quality and quantity of coaching has not kept pace. Russia still produces an occasional brilliant forward but no goalies that rank with Tretiak or elite defensemen like Vasiliev or Fetisov. Point could be made that Tretiak via his books, hockey school appearances and coaching clinic appearances made a much greater impact on goaltending outside the Soviet Union or Russia than internally.No signs of sustainable growth. While the KHL looks like it might have legs, little is happening at the grass roots level.

The main negative of the series was that elite players were not supported by elite coaching, administrators and so one down the line.

The Others

Sweden. Obtained great benefits from their limited exposure to the NHL. Realized that they were much closer to the hockey elite than previously given credit, the Swedes carefully improved all elements of their hockey program. Arenas and facilities were built, coaching and training methods were improved across the board to the point that they are major concerns at various elite levels with a very positive future.

Czechoslovakia. Learned and improved short term. By 1976 and the late seventies looked very promising but in retrospect it was a generational spike. The split into two republics - Czech and Slovak did not help.

Infra structure has not kept pace, neither has coaching. A few excellent players have been produced but not nearly as many as expected. The future does not look to good either.

Finland. Nice progress similar to the Swedes. Worked very hard at developing a complete hockey program. Infra structure, coaching. Future looks promising.

USA. Best job of the major hockey playing countries at building an infra structure to grow and sustain hockey at all levels - coaching,administrators, referees,etc. Very promising future, especially if the USHL and the pre university hockey continues to grow. Major edge over Canada presently is the integration of the high schools and prep schools into the hockey mainstream
Very good post.

However, while it can't ever be compared to Canada or USA, hockey at the grassroots level is slowly improving...particularly when compared to the 1990s, better half of 00's. And by this I mean popularity and community involvement. But take note that, in terms of leagues, funding, organization, hockey will always be a "top-down" sport.

Modern rinks are being built all over the place, there's the recent formation of MHL and MHL-B, and while generally dead in Moscow, the sport is absolutely booming in places like Kazan and Ufa.

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Old
09-29-2011, 03:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by vadnais1972 View Post
Let's not forget... the Russians were a team that were together for years while Team Canada came together for a few weeks of training camp and were over-the-top confident (that changed after the first period in Montreal). Had Team Canada prepared better and had a healthy Bobby Orr, Bobby Hull and even Derek Sanderson (shutdown forward and PK specialist)... The loss of those three players is more devastating than the loss of Kharlamov.
Sounds like an excuse to justify breaking someone's ankle and maintain the legitimacy of victory. Any way you look at it, Canada won by deliberately and premeditatively breaking the best soviet player's ankle. It was a conscious, rational decision (injuring him will increase our chances of winning, so let's do it). Orr and Hull's absence is insignificant. Canada cheated, period.

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09-29-2011, 03:35 PM
  #60
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Sounds like an excuse to justify breaking someone's ankle and maintain the legitimacy of victory. Any way you look at it, Canada won by deliberately and premeditatively breaking the best soviet player's ankle. It was a conscious, rational decision (injuring him will increase our chances of winning, so let's do it). Orr and Hull's absence is insignificant. Canada cheated, period.
I always wondered what the sentiment in North America would be if Kasatonov broke Gretzky's ankle (at the request of Tikhonov) at 1987 Canada Cup....and the Soviet response was "us or them", "you had to be there to understand", "the Canadians were dirty too".

I think it would be considered not only a tainted Soviet victory, but one of the most dirty and unsportsmanlike acts of cheating in the history of the game.

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09-29-2011, 03:35 PM
  #61
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Encouraging

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Very good post.

However, while it can't ever be compared to Canada or USA, hockey at the grassroots level is slowly improving...particularly when compared to the 1990s, better half of 00's. And by this I mean popularity and community involvement. But take note that, in terms of leagues, funding, organization, hockey will always be a "top-down" sport.

Modern rinks are being built all over the place, there's the recent formation of MHL and MHL-B, and while generally dead in Moscow, the sport is absolutely booming in places like Kazan and Ufa.
Thank you for the kind comments. Encouraging news. Are there long term objectives and plans for other regions?

Also in terms of facilities, certain regions of Canada made the mistake of building single purpose hockey arenas. The trend now is to multi-sport community centers or if strictly hockey multi-surface rinks. A single zamboni with one driver can clean up to four rinks per hour while four arenas in close proximity require four zambonis and four drivers for the same job. How is this being addressed in Russia?

Another critical factor is establishing "Learn to Skate" programs where youngsters aged 3 - 5 can go to the arena with a parent and learn to skate. Some organizations in Canada have excellent programs with teachers, loaner skates, and social activities for the youngsters. Are there similar programs in Russia?

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09-29-2011, 03:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I always wondered what the sentiment in North America would be if Kasatonov broke Gretzky's ankle (at the request of Tikhonov) at 1987 Canada Cup....and the Soviet response was "us or them", "you had to be there to understand", "the Canadians were dirty too".

I think it would be considered not only a tainted Soviet victory, but one of the most dirty and unsportsmanlike acts of cheating in the history of the game.
How did fans of Soviet Hockey view Gennady Tsygankov taking out Vladimir Martinec in the finals of the 1974 World Championships, likely at the instruction of Coach Bobrov?

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09-29-2011, 04:08 PM
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How did fans of Soviet Hockey view Gennady Tsygankov taking out Vladimir Martinec in the finals of the 1974 World Championships, likely at the instruction of Coach Bobrov?
What's this have to do with anything? 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't think many people were knowledgeable of, or even remember the incident to have an opinion. And it certainly hasn't been proven that it was a deliberate 'take out Martinec' incident as much as the Soviets were instructed to goon it up. Still, dirty incident for sure.

One thing for sure...the Martinec incident isn't as celebrated as Clarke's slash is. That's the point: you won't find many people justifying Tsygankov's actions like you do Clarke's. In fact Tsykankov is on record as being sorry for injurinig Martinec. The same can't be said for the individuals directly reponsible for the Kharlamov injury.


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09-29-2011, 04:24 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I always wondered what the sentiment in North America would be if Kasatonov broke Gretzky's ankle (at the request of Tikhonov) at 1987 Canada Cup....and the Soviet response was "us or them", "you had to be there to understand", "the Canadians were dirty too".

I think it would be considered not only a tainted Soviet victory, but one of the most dirty and unsportsmanlike acts of cheating in the history of the game.
Specific locations of injuries are kept as confidential as possible in the NHL so that players won't be whacked on the area that is hurting them. Seems a strange thing for the gentlemanly sport that you are imagining exists.

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09-29-2011, 04:36 PM
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Specific locations of injuries are kept as confidential as possible in the NHL so that players won't be whacked on the area that is hurting them. Seems a strange thing for the gentlemanly sport that you are imagining exists.
Agreed.

However, there's a BIG difference between giving an injured player a small whack, as opposed to a full wind-up lumberjack chop from behind.

One is an accepted part of the game. The other....not at all.

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09-29-2011, 04:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Thank you for the kind comments. Encouraging news. Are there long term objectives and plans for other regions?

Also in terms of facilities, certain regions of Canada made the mistake of building single purpose hockey arenas. The trend now is to multi-sport community centers or if strictly hockey multi-surface rinks. A single zamboni with one driver can clean up to four rinks per hour while four arenas in close proximity require four zambonis and four drivers for the same job. How is this being addressed in Russia?

Another critical factor is establishing "Learn to Skate" programs where youngsters aged 3 - 5 can go to the arena with a parent and learn to skate. Some organizations in Canada have excellent programs with teachers, loaner skates, and social activities for the youngsters. Are there similar programs in Russia?
I'll have to speak with the in-laws for verification but I'm certain there are limited learn to skate instructions...certainly in places like Ufa, etc. I know for a fact there's open skating everywhere. What doesn't exist is the equivalent of community sponsored or park board full equipment 'fun leagues' for kids.

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09-29-2011, 05:16 PM
  #67
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Agreed... However, there's a BIG difference between giving an injured player a small whack, as opposed to a full wind-up lumberjack chop from behind... One is an accepted part of the game. The other....not at all.
It depends on which "Code" you adhere to of course. The "Standard Code" on intimidation, fighting & dirty tricks or the "Bobby Clarke Code", which includes Evil Clauses' too numerous to mention here. According to John Ferguson Sr., an Assistant Coach with Team Canada, he called Clarke over to the bench and suggested Kharlamov could "use a tap on the ankle" during Game 8, already tender from an earlier injury in the series. When asked about it later, Clarke responded that he "didnt have to think twice about it; if I hadnt learned how to lay on a 2 hander every once in awhile Id have never left Flin Flon". He also claimed Ferguson either hadnt instructed him to do it or "he couldnt remember Fergie doing so"... I see. Thanks for the contradictions there Bobby.

Some 30 years later Paul Henderson, who along with Ron Ellis were Clarkes linemates, was asked about it, responding that he thought it was about the same as "shooting some guy in the hallway etc etc but thats the way Clarke was a player down in Philadelphia etc etc etc". Clarke chastised Henderson for his comments so long after the fact, Henderson retracting his statements. Just prior to his death, Kharlamov stated he was quite sure "Clarke was aiming to take him out", and earlier than in just Game 8. Postscript; Soviet Assistant Coach Boris Kulagin thought Clarke with Ellis & Henderson were the best players/line of the entire series. Go figure... the controversy rages to this day.

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09-29-2011, 05:43 PM
  #68
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Very Important

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I'll have to speak with the in-laws for verification but I'm certain there are limited learn to skate instructions...certainly in places like Ufa, etc. I know for a fact there's open skating everywhere. What doesn't exist is the equivalent of community sponsored or park board full equipment 'fun leagues' for kids.
These are the most important two elements for the growth of hockey.

They also serve to integrate the various ethnic immigrant groups into the community mainstream, build confidence in youngsters while developing social skills.

At the same time the positive impact on the hockey program - male and female will be very strong plus all the other skating sports will benefit from figure skating, dance, speed skating - short and long track, etc.

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09-29-2011, 06:26 PM
  #69
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The registered players argument is a classic example of "liars figure and figures lie." What your numbers fail to show is that we give people opportunity to play hockey. I'm not sure how it's done overseas, if they just have rep teams, or if they have the house league system that we have over here. But in Canada, we have rep teams and house leagues. And we have extensive rec hockey, senior hockey, and old-timer hockey leagues. We have lots of registered players. But I don't think a 36-year-old defenceman on a rec hockey team in Central Butte, Saskatchewan, whose highest level of hockey was bantam house, is going to be a factor in international tournaments. I doubt a 59-year-old goalie on the old-timer team in Avonlea, Saskatchewan, is going to be factor, either. And I don't think the hundreds of registered five-year-olds playing Timbits initiation hockey in Regina will be suiting up for international touranments any time soon.

My guess is that you don't have those kinds of systems, organizations and leagues in Europe. Are there communities with 400 people in Europe that have an arena and three or four levels of minor hockey house leagues. A lot of the registered players in Canada are initiation and novice players who will never play the game at any sort of a high level; a lot of them will leave the game after novice hockey, and merely enjoy the sport as fans.
I did in post #31 link to a page with more details, but it seems you ignored it:
Quote:
As number of hockey rinks was mentioned, here you'll find the info:
http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-ii...f-players.html

Indoor+Outdoor rinks:
Canada 2486+5000
USA 1274+1800
Russia 240+2000
Others: fewer

You'll find number of players too; male, female, seniors, juniors, etc.
Huge amount of North American U20 players. Then drops. ??
Also, only 2000 Russian senior players! ?
So I have no idea what you're on about. If you want to know about number of rinks, etc., read about it. If you are able to give more details, then do it instead of speculating and speaking about "figures lying". If you think IIHF's numbers are so wrong and instead want to develop your own method for counting, then go ahead and do it. I'm not sure I even can see a contradiction between what the numbers say and what you yourself say.

If Canada have 468 000 registered players under age of 20, and USA 302 000, they surely have lots of more children starting playing hockey than the European countries, and they surely have a lot more potential NHL players.
Russia 61 000, Sweden 41 000, Finland 35 000, Czech Rep 22 800. Slovakia 5 900.

Surely Canada and USA have a huge advantage "talent pool wise" even if excluding your 36 year old defenceman and 59 year old goalie.

Even if summarizing Russia + Czech Rep + Sweden + Finland + Slovakia, there are 3 times more Canadian children playing hockey than in all those European countries aggregated. There are twice as many American youngsters playing hockey.

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A lot of the registered players in Canada are initiation and novice players who will never play the game at any sort of a high level; a lot of them will leave the game after novice hockey, and merely enjoy the sport as fans.
Don't you think there are lots of European children too that quit hockey at young age, in order to focus on other things instead?

Have you looked at the number of rinks? It might tell you that most children from Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Rep never ever even skate in an ice hockey indoor rink. Probably not an outdoor rink either. Here are towns with elite level teams, where (at least when I grew up) a majority never skated on a hockey rink at all. During school, ice hockey was in my class never played once, despite me growing up in a "hockey town".

Surely a Canadian child/teenager playing hockey at any level, has a higher chance of becoming elite level, than a European never to play hockey at all. ?


Last edited by plusandminus: 09-29-2011 at 06:35 PM.
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09-29-2011, 07:18 PM
  #70
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Terms and Methodology.

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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
I did in post #31 link to a page with more details, but it seems you ignored it:


So I have no idea what you're on about. If you want to know about number of rinks, etc., read about it. If you are able to give more details, then do it instead of speculating and speaking about "figures lying". If you think IIHF's numbers are so wrong and instead want to develop your own method for counting, then go ahead and do it. I'm not sure I even can see a contradiction between what the numbers say and what you yourself say.

If Canada have 468 000 registered players under age of 20, and USA 302 000, they surely have lots of more children starting playing hockey than the European countries, and they surely have a lot more potential NHL players.
Russia 61 000, Sweden 41 000, Finland 35 000, Czech Rep 22 800. Slovakia 5 900.

Surely Canada and USA have a huge advantage "talent pool wise" even if excluding your 36 year old defenceman and 59 year old goalie.

Even if summarizing Russia + Czech Rep + Sweden + Finland + Slovakia, there are 3 times more Canadian children playing hockey than in all those European countries aggregated. There are twice as many American youngsters playing hockey.



Don't you think there are lots of European children too that quit hockey at young age, in order to focus on other things instead?

Have you looked at the number of rinks? It might tell you that most children from Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Rep never ever even skate in an ice hockey indoor rink. Probably not an outdoor rink either. Here are towns with elite level teams, where (at least when I grew up) a majority never skated on a hockey rink at all. During school, ice hockey was in my class never played once, despite me growing up in a "hockey town".

Surely a Canadian child/teenager playing hockey at any level, has a higher chance of becoming elite level, than a European never to play hockey at all. ?

Just a general comment, having been involved with youth hockey since before Hockey Quebec was formed.

Arenas/rinks. First there is the counting issue - actual buildings or the actual number of hockey rinks per building. Yet to be standardized. Second issue is the number of hours during a year that a rink -outdoor or indoor is actually used. Unless this is clarified and standardized the numbers have little meaning.

Players. Registered refers to recognized ice hockey federations. Definitions of registered vary depending on the nation, region, zone, association etc. Some basic gaps in the counting.

Learn to skate programs may or may not be included in the count. Hockey associations that rely on funding tend to include while programs run by community centers feeding hockey associations tend to be excluded.

Various community centers and schools run house league type programs that are excluded. Likewise "outlaw" youth hockey league numbers are excluded. See the following as an example:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...l-implications

Then you have the various youngsters playing high school and prep school hockey in Canada. Some instances they are included, other instances they are not included while in some instances they are counted twice. Furthermore there is no indication about the number of youngsters playing in the non-federated spring/summer leagues.

These are just some of the flaws with the numbers and that is before we even look at the key issues - how many hours of ice time each player gets and the quality of the hockey instruction?

The numbers you posted are not worth much debate or exploration since they are extremely superficial. What matters is the amount of time the potential players receive, on and off ice, with elite coaches, training and equipment. Followed by exposure to elite competition.

I sense that poster in question has a solid background in youth and recreational hockey and this was the impetus behind his comments.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 09-29-2011 at 07:45 PM. Reason: wording.
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09-29-2011, 07:42 PM
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What's this have to do with anything? 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't think many people were knowledgeable of, or even remember the incident to have an opinion. And it certainly hasn't been proven that it was a deliberate 'take out Martinec' incident as much as the Soviets were instructed to goon it up. Still, dirty incident for sure.

One thing for sure...the Martinec incident isn't as celebrated as Clarke's slash is. That's the point: you won't find many people justifying Tsygankov's actions like you do Clarke's. In fact Tsykankov is on record as being sorry for injurinig Martinec. The same can't be said for the individuals directly reponsible for the Kharlamov injury.
I mention it for a few reasons:

1) To show that Clarke's slash on Kharlamov was not a one-time thing. For better or worse (probably worse), International Hockey in the 1970s was often viewed as a war.

(IMO, Clarke's attack on Pospisil was worse than his attack on Kharlamov or the Soviet goonery in 1974 because it happened during a "friendly" exhibition game between Canada and Czechoslovakia).

2) I think it supports the assertion by several posters in this thread that while Canada viewed the Summit Series as a war (at least after they realized it wouldn't be a cakewalk), the Soviets hated the Czechoslovakians more.

3) Genuine curiosity as to the reaction among Russians to goonery by their countrymen. The fact that Bobrov was removed as head coach after the victory lends credence to your assertion that using goonery to win was frowned upon in the USSR.


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09-29-2011, 11:42 PM
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1987 WJC Tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I mention it for a few reasons:

1) To show that Clarke's slash on Kharlamov was not a one-time thing. For better or worse (probably worse), International Hockey in the 1970s was often viewed as a war.

(IMO, Clarke's attack on Pospisil was worse than his attack on Kharlamov or the Soviet goonery in 1974 because it happened during a "friendly" exhibition game between Canada and Czechoslovakia).

2) I think it supports the assertion by several posters in this thread that while Canada viewed the Summit Series as a war (at least after they realized it wouldn't be a cakewalk), the Soviets hated the Czechoslovakians more.

3) Genuine curiosity as to the reaction among Russians to goonery by their countrymen. The fact that Bobrov was removed as head coach after the victory lends credence to your assertion that using goonery to win was frowned upon in the USSR.

1987 World Junior Tournament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Wo..._Championships

Who took the two-handed slash and which team left their bench?

What happened to the Soviet coaches?

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09-30-2011, 12:58 AM
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1987 World Junior Tournament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Wo..._Championships

Who took the two-handed slash and which team left their bench?

What happened to the Soviet coaches?

The coaching staff was fired, however more due to poor performance.

Imo, the melee was a case of both benches losing control rather than any premeditated goonery. Only 1 player left the Soviet bench early (not the whole team).....and that set-off the melee.

If there was a plan to 'deny Canada gold', or use goon tactics to win, we certainly would have heard about it from future NHLers like Mogilny, Fedorov, Malakhov, Zelepukin, Davydov, Konstantinov, etc. There was no love-loss between those guys and Soviet coaches...especially a tyrant like coach Vasiliev.

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09-30-2011, 01:16 AM
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Point

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
The coaching staff was fired, however more due to poor performance.

Imo, the melee was a case of both benches losing control rather than any premeditated goonery. Only 1 player left the Soviet bench early (not the whole team).....and that set-off the melee.

If there was a plan to 'deny Canada gold', or use goon tactics to win, we certainly would have heard about it from future NHLers like Mogilny, Fedorov, Malakhov, Zelepukin, Davydov, Konstantinov, etc. There was no love-loss between those guys and Soviet coaches...especially a tyrant like coach Vasiliev.
That is the point. No country holds a monopoly on the negative elements of hockey, poor coaching, players losing it in the heat of competition or whatever other demons come down the road.

Discussing who is more or less irrational during a game serves no purpose. Eliminating irrationality from the sport is what matters.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 09-30-2011 at 01:22 AM. Reason: typo
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09-30-2011, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
What's this have to do with anything? 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't think many people were knowledgeable of, or even remember the incident to have an opinion. And it certainly hasn't been proven that it was a deliberate 'take out Martinec' incident as much as the Soviets were instructed to goon it up. Still, dirty incident for sure.

One thing for sure...the Martinec incident isn't as celebrated as Clarke's slash is. That's the point: you won't find many people justifying Tsygankov's actions like you do Clarke's. In fact Tsykankov is on record as being sorry for injurinig Martinec. The same can't be said for the individuals directly reponsible for the Kharlamov injury.
A few years back, I remember reading a Tsygankov interview (on the internet) where he mentioned the incident, and I think he sort of half-admitted that he did it on purpose (and was definitely sorry). But I haven't been able to find the interview later on, even though I've looked for it. I wonder if it's still available; do you have a link?

By the way, Martinec was able to play in CSSR's final game against Finland (which Finland won 5-4 ) a couple days later, so what ever Tsygankov did to him, he didn't do as much damage as Clarke (gooning in Soviet style = more sophisticated? ).

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