Really? Thats a concern? That a player does not 'look ridiculous' if they fight? And lol at Moen and White being perfect example of enforcers. They have 'looked ridiculous' (got their ***** handed down) in many many fights. I don't think thats the point anyways. Whats ridiculous is how tampa looked when Plecks owned 3 players and the goalie in that play that resulted in cammy scoring a goal. Thats my type of retribution, which seems to be what some of the fans need.
With the number of incidents involving suspensions, and the number of teams who have enforcers, i highly doubt there is any correlation between the two subjects.
Did you read my post ? I said they are NOT enforcers. But they can fight against anybody who are not heavyweights. Moen is a really underrated fighter. Check his fight card last year and during his career.
These were kinda of freakish incidents, the habs were targeted all night long, we won the game, so who cares, but it can have an effect over the course of a long season. Sighting injuries to other teams that are perceived tough does nothing to show what you're trying to insinuate. Boston isn't rag dolled all game long by their opposition ever. We are, it's a concern for me, even if it's not a huge priority.
Freak accidents? Good job at distorting reality bro.
Did you read my post ? I said they are NOT enforcers. But they can fight against anybody who are not heavyweights. Moen is a really underrated fighter. Check his fight card last year and during his career.
ok misread enforcer part, but nonetheless, moen and white have looked ridiculous in numerous fights. Does not make them bad fighters or that they haven't dominated fights. Still "looking bad" is last thing i care about when its concerning team i watch and want to win. Georges did good last night.
Not sure about Nilan, but Larry wouldn't stand for it.
I was thinking about Boston and their concussion problems from big hits. Is it possible that for all their toughness, it actually spurs the other team to behave more violently. Think about it. The Bruins are in town, you have to expect to get knocked around. You mentally prepare yourself to hit or be hit. I'd be curious as to the stats of Bruins man games lost due to checks both legal and illegal as opposed to a team like Montreal.
Off the top of my head. I know we lost Patches last year and Cammy the year before. Lucic has missed games for breaking his beak and had a tough season 2 years ago. Curious is all.
Hard to get numbers on legal/illegal checks, but from what I've looked into:
- The number of fighting majors for a team has no effect on man games lost due to injury or performance in the standings.
- The number of hits a team dishes out has no effect on man games lost due to injury or performance in the standings.
The only real relationship I could find between fighting and any other relevant stat is that teams that fight more tend to take slightly more non-fighting penalties, and even then it's about 2 more minutes per additional fight. Considering the average team racks up about 1000 non-fighting PIMs, that's pretty inconsequential.
Not surprisingly, PIMs was the variable that I found had the biggest effect on performance. Basically every 100 PIMs you take could cost you 2 points in the standings if you look at the numbers from the past decade.
So really, considering how undisciplined our team has been in the past it'd probably be wiser to focus on getting 'smarter' rather than 'tougher'.
Ever thought that the reason Gretzky was rarely injured is because he was an evasive *******?
You're deluding yourself if you think opposing players didn't take liberties on Gretzky.
And you're deluding yourself if you think that having protectors didnt help Gretzky at all. Your post is about as dumb as saying "let's not pay 5 mil for a goal scorer since we know he won't score a goal every game". Just ask yourself this, would you throw rocks at a kid that has a 6'5 brother that you know can kick your ass? It's the very same concept in hockey.
Everytime people go back to the "fighters don't prevent injuries" theory, I'll go back to " remember when Lucic and Niel and Orr were soft as pillows when Laraque was in the line-up", and we'll just go round and round, I don't care. You guys are basically disrespecting a job that has been there older then anybody on this board because our GM doesn't believe in it.
I 100% agree southernhab. Many on here support management at all costs, but if we actually had a couple players in which you speak they would be all for it. I'm not 100% sold that PG is against the idea though, I think he wanted to address the issue, but these players aren't easy to come by. There are usually many teams vying for their services, why, because gm's realize the benefits of having a few of these types on their roster. I wanted O'Brien and rupp, but it didn't happen, i'm not sure it was because we didn't try though.
Not agreeing with a notion of protection in hockey is not equivalent to agreeing with everything management does.
Would you not concede that it is entirely possible for people not to agree with the idea that fighters protect/deter/prevent without having to agree with everything management does?
ok misread enforcer part, but nonetheless, moen and white have looked ridiculous in numerous fights. Does not make them bad fighters or that they haven't dominated fights. Still "looking bad" is last thing i care about when its concerning team i watch and want to win. Georges did good last night.
Agree for Gorges. But I feel bad for him. It's not his job you know
And who never looked bad in a fight ? We saw White lost to Duco, Moen lost to Rosehill. But even Colton Orr, Matt Carkner, George Parros lose fight sometimes. White has to prove himself, but Moen is a pretty good middleweight in the league
Malone better get at least five games. It was no accident I re-watched the video and the slow motion shows him leaving his feet before the hit. Leaving your feet is illegal and when you add a blow to the head he deserves 8 minimum.
Hard to get numbers on legal/illegal checks, but from what I've looked into:
- The number of fighting majors for a team has no effect on man games lost due to injury or performance in the standings.
- The number of hits a team dishes out has no effect on man games lost due to injury or performance in the standings.
The only real relationship I could find between fighting and any other relevant stat is that teams that fight more tend to take slightly more non-fighting penalties, and even then it's about 2 more minutes per additional fight. Considering the average team racks up about 1000 non-fighting PIMs, that's pretty inconsequential.
Not surprisingly, PIMs was the variable that I found had the biggest effect on performance. Basically every 100 PIMs you take could cost you 2 points in the standings if you look at the numbers from the past decade.
So really, considering how undisciplined our team has been in the past it'd probably be wiser to focus on getting 'smarter' rather than 'tougher'.
Not really. The sorting him out process is easier said than done. Often times, it leads to an escalation of hits and cheapshots until someone's injured or someone's tossed.
Unless, you litteraly take his head off. Maybe we should sign a couple of hitmen
And you're deluding yourself if you think that having protectors didnt help Gretzky at all. Your post is about as dumb as saying "let's not pay 5 mil for a goal scorer since we know he won't score a goal every game". Just ask yourself this, would you throw rocks at a kid that has a 6'5 brother that you know can kick your ass? It's the very same concept in hockey.
Everytime people go back to the "fighters don't prevent injuries" theory, I'll go back to " remember when Lucic and Niel and Orr were soft as pillows when Laraque was in the line-up", and we'll just go round and round, I don't care. You guys are basically disrespecting a job that has been there older then anybody on this board because our GM doesn't believe in it.
That's not true though. One example that pops into my mind right away:
Look at him mess with Schneider before the crosscheck to Lapierre's head. This is even after Laraque famously shadowed him.
Oddly enough Gorges was forced to fight in this series as well.
With all due respect mike, i think you're on the wrong side of the debate here. Our small players get pushed around and pot shotted all game long, with no threat from anyone.
I guess this is the root of our disagreement. I don't see this at all. Perhaps in the future you can note down the subtleties you're referring to during a game so that I can understand better where you're coming from on this.
And you're deluding yourself if you think that having protectors didnt help Gretzky at all. Your post is about as dumb as saying "let's not pay 5 mil for a goal scorer since we know he won't score a goal every game". Just ask yourself this, would you throw rocks at a kid that has a 6'5 brother that you know can kick your ass? It's the very same concept in hockey.
Everytime people go back to the "fighters don't prevent injuries" theory, I'll go back to " remember when Lucic and Niel and Orr were soft as pillows when Laraque was in the line-up", and we'll just go round and round, I don't care. You guys are basically disrespecting a job that has been there older then anybody on this board because our GM doesn't believe in it.
With 3 victims of illegal hits this PRE season in the leafs team, how exactly has TOR "truculence" helped them avoid those cheap shots? There is no correlation in what you are talking about. and the Gretzky era was over 20 years ago. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=992217
Malone better get at least five games. It was no accident I re-watched the video and the slow motion shows him leaving his feet before the hit. Leaving your feet is illegal and when you add a blow to the head he deserves 8 minimum.
And why is a man 6'5" leaving his feet on a player 6' and in a crouched skating position in the first place?
He launched himself to the head, the play the NHL wants to eliminate.
He is 6-8 for sure, bye-bye about 350,000-460,000 of your cash Malone.
pro goons are problably the most delusional group on this board
And some are intellectually dishonest.
After 50+ years on this earth I have learned that the ethic of non-aggression but righteousness of self-defence is so naturally prevalent that even bullies need to justify their assaults by pretending they are avenging some terrible deed ("you looked at my girlfriend the wrong way", for example).
Scratch half the pro-goon guys here and you will find people who cheer fights, celebrate when "their" player hurts someone on the other team, and even many who advocate their team becoming the hunter and not just "the hunted".
With 3 victims of illegal hits this PRE season in the leafs team, how exactly has TOR "truculence" helped them avoid those cheap shots? There is no correlation in what you are talking about. and the Gretzky era was over 20 years ago. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=992217
I wouldn't exactly associate Toronto with "truculence" they have a pretty small team and other than Schenn, not very physical.
Not agreeing with a notion of protection in hockey is not equivalent to agreeing with everything management does.
Would you not concede that it is entirely possible for people not to agree with the idea that fighters protect/deter/prevent without having to agree with everything management does?
Don't lump people all in one boat.
I would concede that, but don't believe it to be the case at all here. I could only imagine what you were saying when BG signed George Laraque. Maybe I'll dig up the thread, I'm sure you're in there loving it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
I guess this is the root of our disagreement. I don't see this at all. Perhaps in the future you can note down the subtleties you're referring to during a game so that I can understand better where you're coming from on this.
Did you watch the game last night? There's about a dozen in there.
That's not true though. One example that pops into my mind right away:
Look at him mess with Schneider before the crosscheck to Lapierre's head. This is even after Laraque famously shadowed him.
Oddly enough Gorges was forced to fight in this series as well.
A playoff after-whistle shuffle is supper to prove what? Players stick up for each other on every team. That sequence should give props for Komisarek and Lappierre, not for more enforcer bashing. So many people think that an enforcer is only good if the 19 other players play finesse games and never get injured. You see, THAT to me, is delusional.
Protectors are part of the equation, not the answer to every question nor completely useless.
And you think we'll keep winning by loosing key players?
There is no way to prevent losing key players to cheapshots. This is the entire point of my argument.
It's like that saying "all the laws in the world aren't going to stop one man with a gun". You can load up your team with 15 enforcers if you want, they're not going to stop that one guy on the other team from making one bad decision, like Malone last night.
Last edited by hototogisu: 10-02-2011 at 12:31 PM.
Yup, us, other team fans, the 25 teams that have one and 400 line-ups the had one before that. Iwishiwasassmartasyou.
It's not because 99% of the people eat fast food that its necessarily good to eat some, being a sheep does not make you do the best decisions since sheep would follow each other to a slaughterhouse
plus, despite whatever the pro fighting crap you and your friends are spewing since the beginning of the off-season, we every time come back with even more logical and factual EVIDENCE that fighting is useless and yet you spin those half truth and lies and circular logic and flaunt as if we did not say a thing
I would concede that, but don't believe it to be the case at all here. I could only imagine what you were saying when BG signed George Laraque. Maybe I'll dig up the thread, I'm sure you're in there loving it.
Did you watch the game last night? There's about a dozen in there.
I actually thought it was a good signing because i thought it would have made the players feel secure. turns out Laraque ended being a sideshow.
I agree that tougher guys might make players feel more secure, but I really don't think they protect/prevent. It's more a psychological issue than a preventative one which what I don't agree with. We've jujst seen too many instances where it just doesn't work so I just can't buy into it.
If you are going to tell me that it might make the players feel tougher, then I will agree..I think it's more a placebo effect that anything and we've discussed this before.
As for Laraque, as I sasd, I liked it and like everyone else and I though it was a good signing. It turned out the be the worst. The one signing most agreed with ended being the one everyone hated most.
I actually thought it was a good signing because i thought it would have made the players feel secure. turns out Laraque ended being a sideshow.
I agree that tougher guys might make players feel more secure, but I really don't think they protect/prevent. It's more a psychological issue than a preventative one which what I don't agree with. We've jujst seen too many instances where it just doesn't work so I just can't buy into it.
If you are going to tell me that it might make the players feel tougher, then I will agree..I think it's more a placebo effect that anything and we've discussed this before.
As for Laraque, as I sasd, I liked it and like everyone else and I though it was a good signing. It turned out the be the worst. The one signing most agreed with ended being the one everyone hated most.
"I'd rather have Laraque at 1.5 giving our younger and smaller players a sense of security than Dandenault at 1.7 doing abosolutley nothing". Here's what you said then and it's what I've been saying now. We both agree GL didn't play the role that we had hoped for, but once again you decided with management in something that you are vehemently against now. Funny thing is I didn't even know if you posted in there, but found exactly what I expected.
My reason for toughness is exactly how you just explained it, security and confidence, not to prevent injuries. I still believe someone who is willing to play that role would be beneficial, GL was unwilling to do what we needed, not all are like him.
