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Old
10-13-2011, 10:16 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
1 more reason of wanting a tough guy (or atleast a pest ala Carcillo or Avery) is that when this team shows absolutely no energy like tonight, we have NOBODY on This team that will do something about it. The only thing we can expect is a couple dives with hopefully one that will end up in a penalty for the other team, it's so embarrassing.
Exactly, it's sad! When the habs were one of the best teams, we had always some guys that could get us the momemtum back when the team is flat like tonight. We need to go back to our roots, to the "recipe" that brought us success in the past.

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10-13-2011, 11:27 PM
  #702
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It's sad and pathetic. this team is just soft as melted butter.
I don't even know if 'soft' is the right word... We're just small up front and sometimes it hurts us.

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10-13-2011, 11:39 PM
  #703
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I guess it has NOTHING to do with the quality of a team, for sure....but seeing how those Habs can't look an opponent face to face, are going their separate way while the opponent is just blasting at them makes me feel just unconfortable.....Aside from winning, aside from protecting smaller guys etc., a Habs team, in my books, has more pride than that. You just feel that the entire team just blend in way too much with the coach's behaviour behind the bench.
No pride, no self respect. That coming from a storied franchise like The Montreal Canadiens.

And did you hear the crowd tonight? Silence. When Gio made an incredibly strong hit on one of the Flames, the crowd cheered loudly. That was followed by more silence because there really was not any intensity or hitting coming from the Habs players.

I guess the "pacifists" are seeing their desire come to fruition. A lifeless team and a lifeless crowd. I hope that at least the beer was cold. I am sure Mr. Molson was counting his cash and probably did not even bother to watch this pathetic display of Gauthier and Martin hockey at its finest.

Going to be an interesting year.......and not in a good interesting way either.

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Old
10-13-2011, 11:58 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I guess it has NOTHING to do with the quality of a team, for sure....but seeing how those Habs can't look an opponent face to face, are going their separate way while the opponent is just blasting at them makes me feel just unconfortable.....Aside from winning, aside from protecting smaller guys etc., a Habs team, in my books, has more pride than that. You just feel that the entire team just blend in way too much with the coach's behaviour behind the bench.
I don't think it's the coach. It seems like its been this way for a long time and has now become part of the culture of our club.

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10-14-2011, 12:26 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
posted this in the game day thread.... but to the toughness discussion:


Jackman drives the net after the whistle, pushes weber into Price, then puts his fists into weber's face...

Engqvist, Palushaj, Eller and Weber all standing there, letting it happen, and I don't blame them, but if you know sports, you know that in their head there is hesitation/helplessness setting in, and over the course of a game, a season, a playoff series, it's those seeds of doubt that invariably lead to hesitation during the play, and ends up costing the team.

that's where having a few "tough" players in the lineup makes a difference.

a guy like rupp wouldn't have stood there, the way engqvist did (again, i don't fault him, he's not that kind of athlete), he would have wrapped Jackman up, and returned a bit of that face washing, to make it clear that liberties against our skill guys is not tolerated.
Actually, I saw Emelin push Jackman back and away from the net. I also saw MaxPac drag Kostopoulos down with one hand during another post whistle ''scrum''.
I also saw Gionta and Gomez crash into Kipper with nobody even putting a hand on them to move them out of the way.

As I previously said. Look at other teams, you will notice that players crashing goalies is probably the gameplan of every team, and very often, nobody from the defending team reacts.

People crave that aggressive presence so badly in Mtl that they don't even realize the same things that happen here, happen in every other city.

Don't get me wrong, get me three Ryan White for the 4th line and I'm very happy. But it really isn't as bad as people make it sound.

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Old
10-14-2011, 12:42 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually, I saw Emelin push Jackman back and away from the net. I also saw MaxPac drag Kostopoulos down with one hand during another post whistle ''scrum''.
I also saw Gionta and Gomez crash into Kipper with nobody even putting a hand on them to move them out of the way.

As I previously said. Look at other teams, you will notice that players crashing goalies is probably the gameplan of every team, and very often, nobody from the defending team reacts.

People crave that aggressive presence so badly in Mtl that they don't even realize the same things that happen here, happen in every other city.

Don't get me wrong, get me three Ryan White for the 4th line and I'm very happy. But it really isn't as bad as people make it sound.
I was actually quite surprised to see our Habs crash the net that often in the 2nd and 3rd, Gomez and Gionta like you said but also pretty much all our top 9 crashed the net at some point, at least once.

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10-14-2011, 04:21 AM
  #707
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This team definitely lacks that other element, but I actually thought the habs played a pretty good game overall. The only problem I seen, was the chances we gave up were of the point blank variety, break aways, 2-1's, one timers in the slot ect. Can't fault Carey Price, but I actually believe the habs were a bit unlucky tonight, still need some bangers though.

Way too early to be upset and panicking, this team has basically 3 unproven rookies manning the blueline, if you include Weber, there is bound to be a bit of learning curve, we'll be fine. I'm not overly concerned about this team yet. I still can't get excited about Gionta, his shoot from everywhere game, although effective at times, is completely boring at others. I thought Gomez was one of the better habs again, I still think Pleks is the man on this team, he seem to get frustrated 1/2 way through the game and had a great shift, but one player can't do it alone.

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Old
10-14-2011, 04:24 AM
  #708
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meh, Habs outhit Calgary by quite a margin tonight.

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Old
10-14-2011, 06:24 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
meh, Habs outhit Calgary by quite a margin tonight.
...but because Calgary had "tough guys" on the bench it hurt more

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Old
10-14-2011, 06:25 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by BeerHell View Post
Really, they are SOOOOOOOOO dominant physically? oh and by the way which small player can we blame Gauthier for getting? and do you really think adding 1 or 2 goons would change everything? we would be leading? or at least we might have one a fight or two and feel like we "won" something?

By the Way I am not a Fan of JM but for now I do not have allot of blaming to direct toward PG.
At least we would be winning something

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Old
10-14-2011, 06:29 AM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think it's the coach. It seems like its been this way for a long time and has now become part of the culture of our club.
Its common knowledge Martin doesn't like tough players. Everyone knows this.

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10-14-2011, 07:20 AM
  #712
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1 more reason of wanting a tough guy (or atleast a pest ala Carcillo or Avery) is that when this team shows absolutely no energy like tonight, we have NOBODY on This team that will do something about it. The only thing we can expect is a couple dives with hopefully one that will end up in a penalty for the other team, it's so embarrassing.

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Old
10-14-2011, 07:34 AM
  #713
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Originally Posted by habs24 View Post
Its common knowledge Martin doesn't like tough players. Everyone knows this.
Knowledge or myth?

Martin doesn't like goons.... but given the way he uses Moen (which everyone complains about) are you sure he doesn't like tough players?

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Old
10-14-2011, 09:10 AM
  #714
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Carcillo had a great game last night for Chicago. Just sayin...

Think he may have changed the momentum of the game last night after it was 2-1? I do.

Our 4th line right now is a joke.

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Old
10-14-2011, 10:12 AM
  #715
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Knowledge or myth?

Martin doesn't like goons.... but given the way he uses Moen (which everyone complains about) are you sure he doesn't like tough players?

Moen's toughness has fallen off the face of the earth since joining the Habs. I attribute that to Martin

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Old
10-14-2011, 10:43 AM
  #716
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004689

Just linking that thread to show the fact that protecting a teammate is important in today's NHL, and that the Habs don't have what it takes right now.

Explanation : Letang, one of Pitts best defenseman, gets facewashed, 4rth liner Asham, who was once a Hab, decides it's payback time. BOOM completely KOed him. I BET beagle never facewashes Letang ever again. You touch my superstar you pay the price.

Right now, habs have no one to make the opponents pay the price, other than Moen / White. Typically, you need wingers like Moen / Asham + another physical player centering the fourth line. Not our soft Enqvist or Darche, who both are good defensively but will turtle away when being confronted. And Palushaj is just so useless on a 4rth line.

Aaron Asham isn't a goon, and he could've been with the Habs long term if management would believe in RESPECT and how to be RESPECTED. Asham is even a decent hockey player, has a bomb of a shot.

I don't think any teams are shy from running into Price or starting scrums with the Habs smurfs after whistles. They even will use those tricks to their advantages. How Bourque crosschecked Desharnais, manhandled him on several occasions without any repercussions is just an example, and that'll last as long as they keep their heads into the sand. It seems I have more spine than the Habs management, I'm sick and tired of watching my favorite team on the receiving end and not retaliating, what a weak philosophy.


Last edited by hototogisu: 10-14-2011 at 11:18 AM. Reason: not needed
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Old
10-14-2011, 11:40 AM
  #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004689

Just linking that thread to show the fact that protecting a teammate is important in today's NHL, and that the Habs don't have what it takes right now.

Explanation : Letang, one of Pitts best defenseman, gets facewashed, 4rth liner Asham, who was once a Hab, decides it's payback time. BOOM completely KOed him. I BET beagle never facewashes Letang ever again. You touch my superstar you pay the price.

Right now, habs have no one to make the opponents pay the price, other than Moen / White. Typically, you need wingers like Moen / Asham + another physical player centering the fourth line. Not our soft Enqvist or Darche, who both are good defensively but will turtle away when being confronted. And Palushaj is just so useless on a 4rth line.

Aaron Asham isn't a goon, and he could've been with the Habs long term if management would believe in RESPECT and how to be RESPECTED. Asham is even a decent hockey player, has a bomb of a shot.

I don't think any teams are shy from running into Price or starting scrums with the Habs smurfs after whistles. They even will use those tricks to their advantages. How Bourque crosschecked Desharnais, manhandled him on several occasions without any repercussions is just an example, and that'll last as long as they keep their heads into the sand. It seems I have more spine than the Habs management, I'm sick and tired of watching my favorite team on the receiving end and not retaliating, what a weak philosophy.
yup...

and yet somehow some posters will try to equate Gomez/Gionta lightly bumping Kipper as having the same impact as having a few guys who are actually tough enough to hold opposition accountable.

right now (and for the past several seasons) habs are only "hard" to play against when our PP is firing on all cylinders, and when our transition game is effective.
as soon as a team manages to limit our effectiveness in either of those two facets, we simply don't have the personnel to adapt and attack/cause pressure in different ways.

the top teams in the league can make you pay in a variety of ways, thus making them more adaptable, which inevitably (aside from getting impeccable goaltending every night) is the biggest key to success in the playoffs.

we are too one-dimensional, too many players cut from the same cloth, not enough variety in the lineup.

what the nay-sayers fail to appreciate, is that the complaint would be the exact same if we had a roster that was just as unbalanced on the "toughness" side of things.

issue is not about having tougher players just for the sake of big hits, fights or after the whistle intimidation, it's about having enough balance to be able to adapt, and I fail to see how anyone can make a strong case that our lineup, as is, has that ability.

that we now have 4 big bodies in our top 9 doesn't really address the issue because aside from Moen, the other three really aren't the type of players to be able to play a physically intimidating brand of hockey

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Old
10-14-2011, 11:53 AM
  #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004689

Just linking that thread to show the fact that protecting a teammate is important in today's NHL, and that the Habs don't have what it takes right now.

Explanation : Letang, one of Pitts best defenseman, gets facewashed, 4rth liner Asham, who was once a Hab, decides it's payback time. BOOM completely KOed him. I BET beagle never facewashes Letang ever again. You touch my superstar you pay the price.

Right now, habs have no one to make the opponents pay the price, other than Moen / White. Typically, you need wingers like Moen / Asham + another physical player centering the fourth line. Not our soft Enqvist or Darche, who both are good defensively but will turtle away when being confronted. And Palushaj is just so useless on a 4rth line.

Aaron Asham isn't a goon, and he could've been with the Habs long term if management would believe in RESPECT and how to be RESPECTED. Asham is even a decent hockey player, has a bomb of a shot.

I don't think any teams are shy from running into Price or starting scrums with the Habs smurfs after whistles. They even will use those tricks to their advantages. How Bourque crosschecked Desharnais, manhandled him on several occasions without any repercussions is just an example, and that'll last as long as they keep their heads into the sand. It seems I have more spine than the Habs management, I'm sick and tired of watching my favorite team on the receiving end and not retaliating, what a weak philosophy.
Where was that when Steckel was putting Crosby out? Crosby is the superstar, Letang is supporting cast.

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Old
10-14-2011, 12:01 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Where was that when Steckel was putting Crosby out? Crosby is the superstar, Letang is supporting cast.
not according to barry melrose

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004867

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Old
10-14-2011, 12:03 PM
  #720
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what the nay-sayers fail to appreciate, is that the complaint would be the exact same if we had a roster that was just as unbalanced on the "toughness" side of things.
It may be for you MT, but truth is most just wanna enjoy a good fight, they dont care that much about protection, or safety or wins, they just want to see two big guys hugging each others for a few seconds...

besides... for a face-wash ? really ? is Letang that soft that he needs to be protected from a face-wash ? lol

what's next, he's going to cry when someone looks at him for too long or something ?

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Old
10-14-2011, 12:13 PM
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004689

Just linking that thread to show the fact that protecting a teammate is important in today's NHL, and that the Habs don't have what it takes right now.

Explanation : Letang, one of Pitts best defenseman, gets facewashed, 4rth liner Asham, who was once a Hab, decides it's payback time. BOOM completely KOed him. I BET beagle never facewashes Letang ever again. You touch my superstar you pay the price.

Right now, habs have no one to make the opponents pay the price, other than Moen / White. Typically, you need wingers like Moen / Asham + another physical player centering the fourth line. Not our soft Enqvist or Darche, who both are good defensively but will turtle away when being confronted. And Palushaj is just so useless on a 4rth line.

Aaron Asham isn't a goon, and he could've been with the Habs long term if management would believe in RESPECT and how to be RESPECTED. Asham is even a decent hockey player, has a bomb of a shot.

I don't think any teams are shy from running into Price or starting scrums with the Habs smurfs after whistles. They even will use those tricks to their advantages. How Bourque crosschecked Desharnais, manhandled him on several occasions without any repercussions is just an example, and that'll last as long as they keep their heads into the sand. It seems I have more spine than the Habs management, I'm sick and tired of watching my favorite team on the receiving end and not retaliating, what a weak philosophy.
Maybe Beagle won't maybe he will again, And how did that turn out for Pitts, oh yeah, they won...hmmm no they actually loss. Do you actually think it's gonna prevent everybody else of ever doing that to Letang again? maybe next time someone is going to break Letang's Jaw instead. and yet Again Having Asham on the team stopped Beagle from doing it to Letang in the First place how? But if a habs player receives the same treatments it's because we are weak, If Letang receives it, at least He paid for it. But Letang still received it...

This is where I fail to see the usefullness of an Asham on a team...It doesn't prevent ANYTHING from happening just punishes people after the fact. Let's say we had Asham, Moen & Neil on our fourth Line. Someone crashes into Price while they are not on the ice. Price'S injured for several month. what good does it make that one of these three then beats him up a little? Let's say it happens during the playoffs. and Campbell runs Price and Price is injured for the rest of the series, Boston is probably going to eliminate us afterward anyway, btu at least Campbell will have received a couple of shots to the Head....WOW that's a good thing for us....we showed them...

And if you say that players on other team take more liberty against us...well Jay Beagle plays with Washington and Asham with Pittsburgh, I don't see Montreal anywhere in there yet Beagle took liberty against Letang.And if you watched a little bit of the other teams, you'd see that player take liberty in every game not just against us.

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Old
10-14-2011, 12:22 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Where was that when Steckel was putting Crosby out? Crosby is the superstar, Letang is supporting cast.
Well i guess somebody just didn't do his job, pretty logical no.. Do you ask yourself where was Cammalleri everytime he doesn't score a goal?

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10-14-2011, 12:23 PM
  #723
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Carcillo had a great game last night for Chicago. Just sayin...

Think he may have changed the momentum of the game last night after it was 2-1? I do.

Our 4th line right now is a joke.
Yeah, Carcillo is the reason the Hawks won, not that the Jets defense constantly leaks soft goals.

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10-14-2011, 12:23 PM
  #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1004689

Just linking that thread to show the fact that protecting a teammate is important in today's NHL, and that the Habs don't have what it takes right now.

Explanation : Letang, one of Pitts best defenseman, gets facewashed, 4rth liner Asham, who was once a Hab, decides it's payback time. BOOM completely KOed him. I BET beagle never facewashes Letang ever again. You touch my superstar you pay the price.

Right now, habs have no one to make the opponents pay the price, other than Moen / White. Typically, you need wingers like Moen / Asham + another physical player centering the fourth line. Not our soft Enqvist or Darche, who both are good defensively but will turtle away when being confronted. And Palushaj is just so useless on a 4rth line.

Aaron Asham isn't a goon, and he could've been with the Habs long term if management would believe in RESPECT and how to be RESPECTED. Asham is even a decent hockey player, has a bomb of a shot.

I don't think any teams are shy from running into Price or starting scrums with the Habs smurfs after whistles. They even will use those tricks to their advantages. How Bourque crosschecked Desharnais, manhandled him on several occasions without any repercussions is just an example, and that'll last as long as they keep their heads into the sand. It seems I have more spine than the Habs management, I'm sick and tired of watching my favorite team on the receiving end and not retaliating, what a weak philosophy.
I think you make some good points here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
yup...

and yet somehow some posters will try to equate Gomez/Gionta lightly bumping Kipper as having the same impact as having a few guys who are actually tough enough to hold opposition accountable.

right now (and for the past several seasons) habs are only "hard" to play against when our PP is firing on all cylinders, and when our transition game is effective.
as soon as a team manages to limit our effectiveness in either of those two facets, we simply don't have the personnel to adapt and attack/cause pressure in different ways.

the top teams in the league can make you pay in a variety of ways, thus making them more adaptable, which inevitably (aside from getting impeccable goaltending every night) is the biggest key to success in the playoffs.

we are too one-dimensional, too many players cut from the same cloth, not enough variety in the lineup.

what the nay-sayers fail to appreciate, is that the complaint would be the exact same if we had a roster that was just as unbalanced on the "toughness" side of things.

issue is not about having tougher players just for the sake of big hits, fights or after the whistle intimidation, it's about having enough balance to be able to adapt, and I fail to see how anyone can make a strong case that our lineup, as is, has that ability.

that we now have 4 big bodies in our top 9 doesn't really address the issue because aside from Moen, the other three really aren't the type of players to be able to play a physically intimidating brand of hockey
I agree, esp on the one dimensional part. We're not a bad hockey team. We've got speed, goaltending and we're great on the PP. But at the end of the day we don't have enough grit or balance. Championship teams can usually beat you in many ways. With us, it's goaltending or PP. If the PP doesn't click we're in big trouble and if the goaltending isn't stellar, we don't win.

I still think we'll have a good season and I still think we're in line for about 95 points but there's no doubt that we need more size and grit up front.

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10-14-2011, 12:33 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
It may be for you MT, but truth is most just wanna enjoy a good fight, they dont care that much about protection, or safety or wins, they just want to see two big guys hugging each others for a few seconds...

besides... for a face-wash ? really ? is Letang that soft that he needs to be protected from a face-wash ? lol

what's next, he's going to cry when someone looks at him for too long or something ?
not sure what level of sports you have played (and I ask that out of curiosity, not at all meant in a condescending way), but from my experience, it's not the pain or physical damage of an uncontested face-wash that is the issue... obviously it's nothing more than a minor irritation.

the issue is the attitude and mentality behind it... it's an ego thing.
A guy who can take liberties at will against you, especially the ones that are visible to everyone, is a guy that's showing everyone he can do what he wants.

sports, especially contact sports, are very much about the emotional power struggle. Gaining and maintaining confidence is the biggest struggle all athletes go through minute by minute during competition (often times more so at a sub-conscious level), and feelings of helplessness only make that struggle far more difficult.

Some athletes, usually the best performers, have an incredibly high threshold, and can maintain confidence despite what an opponent, coach, referees, fans etc will do... that is obviously the ideal, and what all good athletes aspire to... fact is that it is much easier to say than to do. You would likely be astonished by how mentally weak many elite athletes actually are. They get to their level thanks to physical gifts, work ethic, or sometimes simply from the luck of having been exposed from an early age from great opportunities (and usually a combination of all three), but once they get there, how well they are able to translate their abilities into actual consistent performance, is almost exclusively a direct result of their mental "game"... how strong it is and how diligent they are (sometimes even without formally being aware of it) at fine tuning it.

back to the face wash example, i think we saw a great example of how the mental war can be "won" by virtue of otherwise minor physical interactions during last years cup finals.

Marchands "punching bag" routine on Sedin last year clearly didn't physically hurt him, but the next day, in the biggest game of his life, Sedin put up 0 points and was a -4.

no way to "prove" that the two incidents where connected, but from my experience with high level sports and athletes, I would argue that the link is undeniable. it's the kind of human factor that no stat sheet will ever pick up, but all athletes/coaches know plays a huge role in performance (not unlike the superstitions that are rampant in sports, yet have no statistical justification).

"getting inside" your opponents head is a very real phenomenon... our organization seems convinced that we can "win" that battle by virtue of skill alone, and it certainly is true that if you have a team that makes the other team "pay" by virtue of a lethal PP and predatory transition game, you can win that battle...

different sport, but Jordan's bulls, when they finally overcame the Big Bad Pistons, did so very much on the back of a deadly offense and transition game that eventually wore down the bigger, slower Pistons... but if you watch some of the documentaries about the Bulls as they evolved into one of the greatest championships teams in modern sports history, Jordan emphatically states that part of the evolution they needed to go through to overcome the intimidating pistons, and later served them well in handling a very physical Knicks team, was that they needed to get tougher... plain and simple.

Basketball is a different sport, but if anything, physical intimidation is even less of a factor than it is in hockey, because even if a guy might get his elbows up and "foul hard", he can't start punching you and he can't slam your face into a stanchion... hockey players face far more serious physical punishment, and it follows that a player, a human being, who isn't particularly "tough" will suffer more intimidation if he feels an opponent has carte blanche to physically attack him at will.


I think you have used the Red Wings as an example of a team that is relatively successful without focusing on so-called "tough" players, and I agree, difference is that they have one of the most talented Defensmen to ever play the game (lidstrom), one of the top 2-3 forwards in the league(datsyuk), another one who is arguably top 10-15(Zetterberg), and then a bunch of a players who are a nice balance btw physically tough/skilled (Franzen, Holmstrom, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Kronwall, Stuart) supporting them.
The nucks are built in a similar mode, and they went to game 7 of the cup finals last year...

habs don't have that level of "talent", so trying to win in the same way seems to me to be a fools approach. You have to work with the horses that you have.

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