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Old
10-20-2011, 11:35 PM
  #851
SouthernHab
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You know that you have reached rock bottom on the toughness scale when Matt Niskanen goes after your skill players........and no one stands up to Matt Niskanen.

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10-21-2011, 01:35 AM
  #852
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You know that you have reached rock bottom on the toughness scale when Matt Niskanen goes after your skill players........and no one stands up to Matt Niskanen.
or when a dwarf such as Gionta runs your goalie and no one's there to defend him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Can't wait to see Ryan White back. This kid has energy and emotion in his play.

With Moen and White we are not bad at forwards.
The big problem is that we don't have a big physical defenseman (like O'Brien or Wilson in Colorado). That's why I liked Paul Mara last year.
think you should have a talk with a few posters here...

You probably the only one not begging for a Ivanans type... others all keep pretending they dont want goons, but they named the Konopka, Rupp, Boll, etc...


guys like Wilson, O'Brien, White, Moen are useful hockey players, they can either kill penalties, follow play 5 on 5, chip in the occasionnal goal, etc...


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-22-2011 at 07:58 PM. Reason: merge
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10-21-2011, 09:20 AM
  #853
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Yesterday Engelland, Asham, Lovejoy, Vitale etc. was hitting everything... I mean I understand if we get outplayed by Lucic, Marchand, Chara, Thornton but com on...

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10-21-2011, 10:08 AM
  #854
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I think yesterday, the player's shadow outplayed them...come on

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10-22-2011, 07:32 PM
  #855
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from a GDT post, but perfect example of why we need our GM to do something to help his team compete better, and allow the skill guys to focus on their role, not resort to swinging their sticks to defend themselves because no one else will...


during 2nd period, after montreal takes back to back retaliation penalties (Weber, Price):


and that is EXACTLY why we need a "tougher" player as the 4th line centre...

engvist is useless. as others have noticed, a "bigger" Pyatt, but absolutely no desire to stick up for his teammates.

Stands there while Rosehill pushes on Subban who is already lying dead on the ice...

then lets Rosehill do as he wishes in front of Price/Weber, taking liberties, until Weber finally retaliates and takes a penalty for it.

That is exactly the reason why having a tough player is needed. Rosehill has no fear to do what he wants because he knows there is no one on that 4th line that will do anything about it... completely free.

and now Price taking shots and getting penalties... why? because no one on the habs is there to stick up for him.


This is getting ridiculous. PG needs to abandon this holier than thou "we are above having tough players to play that role" b.s and get this team 1-2 players who can step in, so guys like Price and Weber don't feel the need to defend themselves using their sticks.


just brutal... and sad to watch.

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10-22-2011, 07:57 PM
  #856
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This is now why I am routing for my team to lose games.

Changes must be made and losing seems the only option left to achieve it with these arrogant stiffs running this team currently

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10-22-2011, 08:04 PM
  #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
from a GDT post, but perfect example of why we need our GM to do something to help his team compete better, and allow the skill guys to focus on their role, not resort to swinging their sticks to defend themselves because no one else will...


during 2nd period, after montreal takes back to back retaliation penalties (Weber, Price):


and that is EXACTLY why we need a "tougher" player as the 4th line centre...

engvist is useless. as others have noticed, a "bigger" Pyatt, but absolutely no desire to stick up for his teammates.

Stands there while Rosehill pushes on Subban who is already lying dead on the ice...

then lets Rosehill do as he wishes in front of Price/Weber, taking liberties, until Weber finally retaliates and takes a penalty for it.

That is exactly the reason why having a tough player is needed. Rosehill has no fear to do what he wants because he knows there is no one on that 4th line that will do anything about it... completely free.

and now Price taking shots and getting penalties... why? because no one on the habs is there to stick up for him.


This is getting ridiculous. PG needs to abandon this holier than thou "we are above having tough players to play that role" b.s and get this team 1-2 players who can step in, so guys like Price and Weber don't feel the need to defend themselves using their sticks.


just brutal... and sad to watch.
I'm with you on the Weber comments, guys like him should focus on playing a skill game...

if anything the blame is on the bigger guys, one being Gill, was glad he kinda woke up in the 2nd though... although it wasnt for long, when he and Cole started to play more of a "power game" Leafs were pretty quiet...

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10-22-2011, 08:18 PM
  #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'm with you on the Weber comments, guys like him should focus on playing a skill game...

if anything the blame is on the bigger guys, one being Gill, was glad he kinda woke up in the 2nd though... although it wasnt for long, when he and Cole started to play more of a "power game" Leafs were pretty quiet...
agree...

thing is, at least with Gill, that's really not his "style". as big as he is, and as "tough" as he is as a competitor, he's much more "gentle giant" than he is intimidator.

Cole, Maxpac, both of those guys are big bodies, tough as competitors, but again neither really have the mentality of someone looking to physically impose on other players.

it's rare to find top-6 or top-4 caliber players of that makeup, but i think there are quite a few depth NHL players who play that way, without being pure goons/lacking the skill to play their "hockey" role well.

PG needs to have a list of them, and then he needs to make it a priority to work the phones until he can land 1-2 of them.

he'll have to part with an asset to bring a player like that in now, and that's his fault for not going out and filling that need via UFA market, but enough is enough...

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10-22-2011, 08:58 PM
  #859
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The 3 official reasons of the ''pacifists'' on this board to do not have tough players :

1. Tough players are not skilled
- We are last in the east and players like Engvist, Emelin, Gill, Darche and Palushaj can't play in the NHL

2. Tough players take stupid penalties
- We take bench penalties nights after nights

3. Let the other team hit us, we will use our powerplay
- We can't score a ****ing goal on the PP

Pierre Gauthier know how to build a team

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:10 PM
  #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
The 3 official reasons of the ''pacifists'' on this board to do not have tough players :

1. Tough players are not skilled
- We are last in the east and players like Engvist, Emelin, Gill, Darche and Palushaj can't play in the NHL

2. Tough players take stupid penalties
- We take bench penalties nights after nights

3. Let the other team hit us, we will use our powerplay
- We can't score a ****ing goal on the PP

Pierre Gauthier know how to build a team
It's a afterlockout vision of hockey....doesn't work.
Be against fights or not but c'mon, Rosehill was the edge so what does that tell you.
The biggest holes are at center and spreads through an unbalanced D.;

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10-22-2011, 09:17 PM
  #861
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Martin is passive and he has a team that he likes to mirror that.

Hire Patty Roy, get some tougher players and bigger bodies and mix that with the skill we do have, and we'll be a better team. Right now our skilled guys and Price are just taking a beating and being asked to do things they shouldn't.

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Old
10-22-2011, 10:20 PM
  #862
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This team has no toughness what so ever. Why did Montreal win so many cups? Yes Skill and toughness. Along with Richard,Lafleur,Dryden ,Robinson, you also had Ferguson,Trembly,Lupien,Nilan,Kordic. You get the picture. When the Bruins play Montreal there licking there chops knowing they can do what they want knowing not one Canadian will come after them.

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Old
10-22-2011, 10:47 PM
  #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
agree...

thing is, at least with Gill, that's really not his "style". as big as he is, and as "tough" as he is as a competitor, he's much more "gentle giant" than he is intimidator.

Cole, Maxpac, both of those guys are big bodies, tough as competitors, but again neither really have the mentality of someone looking to physically impose on other players.

it's rare to find top-6 or top-4 caliber players of that makeup, but i think there are quite a few depth NHL players who play that way, without being pure goons/lacking the skill to play their "hockey" role well.

PG needs to have a list of them, and then he needs to make it a priority to work the phones until he can land 1-2 of them.

he'll have to part with an asset to bring a player like that in now, and that's his fault for not going out and filling that need via UFA market, but enough is enough...
Agreed about Gill, thing is, when players such as Diaz or Weber see this tower not doing anything physically, they sure dont feel like playing with that much of an edge physically... the guys is the biggest player on the ice in about 90% of the games Habs play and he isnt doing anything physically...


I'm not too worried about our forward group, I mean, without playing dirty or anything, the whole Eller line was dominant physically, all they did was finishing their checks (they're big bodies, that helps), same with Pacc/Cole, give them a C who can win faceoffs once in a hile and you have another line that can play a power game...

the only one in our forward group I can see being replaced by a tougher player (not a fighter, but another Moen) would be Darche, I'm not counting Palushaj as he's here until White's ready, no more.

on the back end, we have ONE big body, but the guy is a teddy bear... Emelin may become a physical force one day, but as of now he's a rookie on an inexperienced D corp...

I mean, no one tried to kill any Leafs but while a guy like Rosehill was having fun out there, all it took is a few hits from Gill on Phaneuf and a few from Cole and we didnt hear his name the rest of the game, same for Brown or any other physical player from the Leafs...

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10-22-2011, 11:01 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed about Gill, thing is, when players such as Diaz or Weber see this tower not doing anything physically, they sure dont feel like playing with that much of an edge physically... the guys is the biggest player on the ice in about 90% of the games Habs play and he isnt doing anything physically...


I'm not too worried about our forward group, I mean, without playing dirty or anything, the whole Eller line was dominant physically, all they did was finishing their checks (they're big bodies, that helps), same with Pacc/Cole, give them a C who can win faceoffs once in a hile and you have another line that can play a power game...

the only one in our forward group I can see being replaced by a tougher player (not a fighter, but another Moen) would be Darche, I'm not counting Palushaj as he's here until White's ready, no more.

on the back end, we have ONE big body, but the guy is a teddy bear... Emelin may become a physical force one day, but as of now he's a rookie on an inexperienced D corp...

I mean, no one tried to kill any Leafs but while a guy like Rosehill was having fun out there, all it took is a few hits from Gill on Phaneuf and a few from Cole and we didnt hear his name the rest of the game, same for Brown or any other physical player from the Leafs...
true, but damage done... If a guy like Rosehill can go in their, draw a penalty, and then irritate the goalie to the point where he lashes out on the next guy into the net, drawing another penalty, and the opposition scores (as they did), that's already too much.

part of not hearing Rosehill's name the rest of the game was more about the laffs shortening their bench in the 3rd period of a close game (as did we... did the 4th line even see the ice in the 3rd?) than it was because Gill/Cole shut him up.

That's also why the ideal is to have 1-or-2 top 9 fwds who can play that "tough" game, so that they can still be implicated late in games/in the playoffs... but again why those players are so much harder to come by.

I think White would address this issue to a degree, but he looks to be out a long time (and I think that part of why PG didn't go out and get a 4th line tough-guy was in part because he felt White would be enough in that role -since pure enforcers/goons don't seem to be a consideration*), so it's incumbent on PG to go out and find an alternative for the short-term.

Engvist isn't bringing anywhere near to enough to make the case that he wouldn't be better off playing lots of minutes in Hamilton, same for Palushaj. Neither are helping this team in any way right now, and not having a guy who can stand up for his teammates, even if only playing 5-10min/night, is hurting us imo.

*and i agree with that

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Old
10-22-2011, 11:20 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
true, but damage done... If a guy like Rosehill can go in their, draw a penalty, and then irritate the goalie to the point where he lashes out on the next guy into the net, drawing another penalty, and the opposition scores (as they did), that's already too much.

part of not hearing Rosehill's name the rest of the game was more about the laffs shortening their bench in the 3rd period of a close game (as did we... did the 4th line even see the ice in the 3rd?) than it was because Gill/Cole shut him up.

That's also why the ideal is to have 1-or-2 top 9 fwds who can play that "tough" game, so that they can still be implicated late in games/in the playoffs... but again why those players are so much harder to come by.

I think White would address this issue to a degree, but he looks to be out a long time (and I think that part of why PG didn't go out and get a 4th line tough-guy was in part because he felt White would be enough in that role -since pure enforcers/goons don't seem to be a consideration*), so it's incumbent on PG to go out and find an alternative for the short-term.

Engvist isn't bringing anywhere near to enough to make the case that he wouldn't be better off playing lots of minutes in Hamilton, same for Palushaj. Neither are helping this team in any way right now, and not having a guy who can stand up for his teammates, even if only playing 5-10min/night, is hurting us imo.

*and i agree with that
Agreed, 3rd period of a close game you shorten your bench that's for sure, but when Gill/Cole started playing physical Leafs had the lead and could have easily continued doing what was working for them (Rosehill has bothering pretty much every Habs on the ice)...

as for our top 9, well we have Eller, Pacc, AK, Cole and Moen who dont seem to have much problems in more physical games, that's pretty much more than half our top 9... I'd even argue it's NHL average if not slightly above... looks worse cause the small ones are REALLY small...

(Lombardi, Kessel, Kadri, Lupul, Grabovski ? I dont see any pwr forward there )

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10-22-2011, 11:45 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, 3rd period of a close game you shorten your bench that's for sure, but when Gill/Cole started playing physical Leafs had the lead and could have easily continued doing what was working for them (Rosehill has bothering pretty much every Habs on the ice)...

as for our top 9, well we have Eller, Pacc, AK, Cole and Moen who dont seem to have much problems in more physical games, that's pretty much more than half our top 9... I'd even argue it's NHL average if not slightly above... looks worse cause the small ones are REALLY small...

(Lombardi, Kessel, Kadri, Lupul, Grabovski ? I dont see any pwr forward there )
you're right, though the leafs back end has Phaneuf/Schenn/Komi + Gardiner/Franson/Gustavson who, while not physical players, are all 6'2 or bigger and +/- 200pds (well gardiner is listed at 188, though within 1-2 yrs he'll be 200pds+ probably).

and up front, while the top-6 is surprisingly devoid of "truculence" the bottom-6 is made up almost exclusively of guys who like to play rough... the kind of balance I've been dreaming of seeing the habs target for years now, but especially since the summer of '09 when Gainey made the move towards top-6 "smurfs".

while you are making a case for a need to bulk up on the back-end, I'd argue that looking at our roster, the "easiest" place to add that toughness element would be up front, since our 4th line is made up of guys who could/should be playing in Hamilton, and Darche, while a solid 4th liner who can play up, would be easily replaceable in the top 9.

With Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Campoli, Spacek, and then the 3 young guys with promising upside (Weber/Diaz/Emelin), unless we are moving Spacek (not likely to find taker) or Gill (should be a keeper for locker room reasons, and really is ideally suited for a bottom pairing role for us), it's hard for me to see a reasonable scenario where we went out and got a bottom pairing physical guy.

in other words, the need is for 1-2 guys in the lineup who can play a certain role, and due to current roster makeup and short of a blockbuster type trade to go after a top-6Fwd/top-4D, the easiest and most realistic solution is to target a bottom-6 guy who can fill that need short-term.

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Old
10-23-2011, 12:11 AM
  #867
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you're right, though the leafs back end has Phaneuf/Schenn/Komi + Gardiner/Franson/Gustavson who, while not physical players, are all 6'2 or bigger and +/- 200pds (well gardiner is listed at 188, though within 1-2 yrs he'll be 200pds+ probably).

and up front, while the top-6 is surprisingly devoid of "truculence" the bottom-6 is made up almost exclusively of guys who like to play rough... the kind of balance I've been dreaming of seeing the habs target for years now, but especially since the summer of '09 when Gainey made the move towards top-6 "smurfs".

while you are making a case for a need to bulk up on the back-end, I'd argue that looking at our roster, the "easiest" place to add that toughness element would be up front, since our 4th line is made up of guys who could/should be playing in Hamilton, and Darche, while a solid 4th liner who can play up, would be easily replaceable in the top 9.

With Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Campoli, Spacek, and then the 3 young guys with promising upside (Weber/Diaz/Emelin), unless we are moving Spacek (not likely to find taker) or Gill (should be a keeper for locker room reasons, and really is ideally suited for a bottom pairing role for us), it's hard for me to see a reasonable scenario where we went out and got a bottom pairing physical guy.

in other words, the need is for 1-2 guys in the lineup who can play a certain role, and due to current roster makeup and short of a blockbuster type trade to go after a top-6Fwd/top-4D, the easiest and most realistic solution is to target a bottom-6 guy who can fill that need short-term.
Agreed, it's way easier, so to speak, to add a 3rd or 4th liner with some size than to find a decent enough D to play top 4 with size/physicality...

problem is, even if we add a bigger player or two to replace guys like Darche or Palushaj, our D will still be small... and they're the ones who are supposed to defend the goalie first...

we dont really need to be "tougher" I think, but if we could add size on the back end, guys with enough weight/strenght that when they put on the break it stops the opposing forward from charging our goalie, if we could have that, we'd be fine I think...

I mean, Gill isnt a tough guy, but when he puts his body between you and his goalie, you stop, you cant go trough... trying to do it anyway would only result in you wasting precious energy, just like when our D are trying to keep opposing forwards from charging the goalie, notice when they try - they end up falling on Price most of the time... give them another 15/20 pounds and it's a different story...

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10-23-2011, 12:18 AM
  #868
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Originally Posted by TheWhiteIdea View Post
This is now why I am routing for my team to lose games.

Changes must be made and losing seems the only option left to achieve it with these arrogant stiffs running this team currently
Tonight was the first time in my life I was glad the Habs lost. Hoping that's what is required. We need to change the culture around this team, i.e. the coach and general manager. Sick and tired of being pushed around. If we're going down at least put up a fight. (add some sense of creative offense also)

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10-23-2011, 12:31 AM
  #869
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, it's way easier, so to speak, to add a 3rd or 4th liner with some size than to find a decent enough D to play top 4 with size/physicality...

problem is, even if we add a bigger player or two to replace guys like Darche or Palushaj, our D will still be small... and they're the ones who are supposed to defend the goalie first...

we dont really need to be "tougher" I think, but if we could add size on the back end, guys with enough weight/strenght that when they put on the break it stops the opposing forward from charging our goalie, if we could have that, we'd be fine I think...

I mean, Gill isnt a tough guy, but when he puts his body between you and his goalie, you stop, you cant go trough... trying to do it anyway would only result in you wasting precious energy, just like when our D are trying to keep opposing forwards from charging the goalie, notice when they try - they end up falling on Price most of the time... give them another 15/20 pounds and it's a different story...
another reason I hope we hang on to Weber (and less so Diaz) for 2-3 seasons unless he's part of a bigger deal that helps us significantly.

he won't likely add 15/20pds, but even just another 5/10 pds would make him that much more effective physically, and the guy clearly has great vision, skating, puck skills and determination.

right now, even though Bournival is an intriguing prospect to have, O'byrne is a guy that would be of great value. Too bad Martin in his infinite wisdom couldn't find a way to use him effectively...

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10-23-2011, 12:36 AM
  #870
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another reason I hope we hang on to Weber (and less so Diaz) for 2-3 seasons unless he's part of a bigger deal that helps us significantly.

he won't likely add 15/20pds, but even just another 5/10 pds would make him that much more effective physically, and the guy clearly has great vision, skating, puck skills and determination.

right now, even though Bournival is an intriguing prospect to have, O'byrne is a guy that would be of great value. Too bad Martin in his infinite wisdom couldn't find a way to use him effectively...
same here, and agree with the determination part, I see him try to hit and push opposing forwards a lot even though he clearly doesnt have the weight/strenght to do it effectively... if, like you sai, he can add a few more pounds to his frame he could be a solid 4th D(+ PP) for us.

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10-23-2011, 10:21 AM
  #871
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List of players I think that we would be able to get to help us with team toughness. I want DD gone he has no role and we a 3rd line c who can agitate hit and score not some midget. Here is my list

Oshie
Beach
Malone
Bryan Allen
Matt Greene
Bogo (Pay a high price but probably still worth it)
Abledkader (sp?)
Neil
ETC

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10-27-2011, 05:03 PM
  #872
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Might need to have this one up at the top for tonight's game with the Bruins.

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10-27-2011, 05:05 PM
  #873
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Might need to have this one up at the top for tonight's game with the Bruins.
If it's a loss. -WE NEED TOUGHNESS (regardless of ANYTHING)
If it's a win -WHO NEEDS TOUGHNESS? (regardless of anything)

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10-27-2011, 05:14 PM
  #874
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If it's a win -WHO NEEDS TOUGHNESS? (regardless of anything)

Really, huh? If we win, but lose one of our players in the process, we'll see how many people poo poo toughness tomorrow morning. Montreal is going to get smacked around tonight. 100% guaranteed.

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10-27-2011, 05:18 PM
  #875
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Really, huh? If we win, but lose one of our players in the process, we'll see how many people poo poo toughness tomorrow morning. Montreal is going to get smacked around tonight. 100% guaranteed.
No doubt about it...the Habs have nobody above 5'10" 185lbs except for Gill and Boston's smallest player is Horton at 6'2" 205lbs...

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