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Old
10-05-2011, 01:03 PM
  #176
hototogisu
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Offer Darche and White to the 29 other GMs, nobody will take Darche ahead of White.

I like Darche, but White is essential to this team and the kind of player you need to win
The first part may be true but it has nothing to do with what I said, and the second part...well it's hard for me to consider a guy with 43 NHL games played "essential to the team" and the kind of guy you need to win...that all remains to be seen.

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10-05-2011, 01:05 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I didn't tell you who I thought was the more physical player, I told you who the better one is.
And you're comparing a rookie playing 27 games at fourth line minutes to a veteran who played top line minutes last year?

Darche is easily replaceable. White is not on this club. Darche adds little, White If given the same playing time and opportunity would add similar point totals and be much more physical.

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10-05-2011, 01:06 PM
  #178
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Darche averaged 11:16 per game last year.

Thats top line minutes?

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10-05-2011, 01:13 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Offer Darche and White to the 29 other GMs, nobody will take Darche ahead of White.

I like Darche, but White is essential to this team and the kind of player you need to win
You're overrating White and underrating Darche.

I think their value is pretty even, both are bottom 6 role players that bring something different. Darche can chip in 10 goals on very little ice time. You can use him on the PP or on higher lines when needed in a "pinch hitting" role for a few games plus he works hard and is a good presence in the room and with the young players. White is a banger that can drop the gloves, he brings a physical aspect and can change the tempo with a few good hits.

If you gave the 30 NHL GM's the choice I think it would end up pretty even depending on what their team needs more in their bottom 6.

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10-05-2011, 01:24 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Darche averaged 11:16 per game last year.

Thats top line minutes?
I said by times he was playing with the top line, I.e top line minutes. How many Minutes did White average?

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10-05-2011, 01:26 PM
  #181
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I'm loving all the backpedelling is this thread. So now Betts is not good enough ahaha.


Last edited by hototogisu: 10-05-2011 at 01:52 PM. Reason: not needed
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10-05-2011, 01:30 PM
  #182
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Who said he wasn't good enough? I simply laughed at the idea that some people were floating that this was Jack Ears and Gauthier getting a tough guy.

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10-05-2011, 01:32 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I'm loving all the backpedelling is this thread. So now Betts is not good enough ahaha.
Betts is not good enough when it comes to toughness....he is a nice addition for the 4th line sure and the PK etc...

The dude is not that physical & I dont think he has ever had a fight in his NHL career. He is not someone to protect Price & the little 'skilled & talented' players the Habs roster is supposedly full of.


Last edited by hototogisu: 10-05-2011 at 01:52 PM. Reason: edited quote
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10-05-2011, 01:36 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Ain't it grand to watch your beloved team get beatin' up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2XhQI3K37c

Sorry, what's that? The police? Oh, right, the players can depend on hysterical Montreal fans to dial 911, and press charges whenever their feelings are hurt.

Good on you if you care for that stuff. I, for one, dont care one bit what happens before or after games, neither from fans of players.

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10-05-2011, 01:36 PM
  #185
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Wait. Yesterday the argumenrt was Montreal won't get Betts because Gauthier hates toughness. They claim him and now it's Betts is not tough. I'm only using your logic boys. Lol

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10-05-2011, 01:44 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I'm loving all the backpedelling is this thread. So now Betts is not good enough ahaha.
Who is THE person that said that Betts wasn't good enough??? Betts coveres A LOT of our needs, mainly having a top pk player that will help Plekanec concentrate on scoring goals instead of spending 7-8 mins a game playing shorthanded, but he doesn't cover our toughness issue at all. I swear to god man, if the Habs ever hold a " who's pro-habs no matter what" contest, I am sooooooooo going to nominate you for it.


Last edited by hototogisu: 10-05-2011 at 02:00 PM. Reason: edited quoted post
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Old
10-05-2011, 01:48 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Wait. Yesterday the argumenrt was Montreal won't get Betts because Gauthier hates toughness. They claim him and now it's Betts is not tough. I'm only using your logic boys. Lol
You want to add toughness add a couple players like Eric Godard and David Clarkson

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Old
10-05-2011, 01:50 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
Well, if your forwards play a peripherical game and don't drive the net, they are definitely afraid of getting in dense areas of the ice and it can be related to the lack of toughness. Or the lack of retaliation when ANYONE bullies Price, or the lack of spine when Ferrence taunts the whole ****ing crowd. If Habs had any pride they'd react to things like that, management that is. Whenever I get embarassed publicly in life I try to correct things out. Losing respect is the worst thing that can happen in real life and in contact sports.

You can laugh all you want, I'll when my beloved team bleeds on the ice with Gorges or some other Kostopoulos-like fights and gets pummeled while fans call the WHAAAAAAAMBULANCE.

And, once again, you insist saying this team has 'skilled' forwards... Mind boggling... None of our players is in the top 30 skaters of this league. Markov might be if he's back in shape, Subban might become. Price is the only reason why we make the playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
You can laugh all you want, I'll when my beloved team bleeds on the ice with Gorges or some other Kostopoulos-like fights and gets pummeled while fans call the WHAAAAAAAMBULANCE.



Then we'll be back in a similar thread arguing that

'toughness dosen't prevent cheapshots'
'no need for a goon'
'we're a skilled and fast team'

vs

'toughness earns respect'
'a tough guy ain't a goon if he's good at hockey'
'we win with Price standing on his head'
i'm sure if you repeat yourself a third time, people will start understanding.
Also the "vs" comparisons have no correlation between each other. Probably thats why its impossible to debate , because one question is asked, and a completly diferent answer is given.
eg.
question: Does thoughness prevent cheashots?
answer: thoughness earns respect.

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Old
10-05-2011, 01:55 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Wait. Yesterday the argumenrt was Montreal won't get Betts because Gauthier hates toughness. They claim him and now it's Betts is not tough. I'm only using your logic boys. Lol
I never said anything like that... I said they won't get anyone tough and they haven't... Betts does not have one career fighting major. Not one! Anyone accusing him of being tough is seriously mistaken.

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10-05-2011, 02:11 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I never said anything like that... I said they won't get anyone tough and they haven't... Betts does not have one career fighting major. Not one! Anyone accusing him of being tough is seriously mistaken.
He's just bringing some PK experience and average face offs skills. If he's tough, it might be just "mental", and the fact that he played with many REAL tough guys in the past on the 4tl line.

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10-05-2011, 02:22 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I never said anything like that... I said they won't get anyone tough and they haven't... Betts does not have one career fighting major. Not one! Anyone accusing him of being tough is seriously mistaken.
anyone assuming fighting is what makes you though, is seriously mistaken

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10-05-2011, 02:47 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
i'm sure if you repeat yourself a third time, people will start understanding.
Also the "vs" comparisons have no correlation between each other. Probably thats why its impossible to debate , because one question is asked, and a completly diferent answer is given.
eg.
question: Does thoughness prevent cheashots?
answer: thoughness earns respect.
The 'vs' comparison was just a way of saying 'we can agree to disagree' and not necessarily an answer to any question, much more comparing valid points between the two camps, as in, nobody's right nor wrong, and we could go on and on forever.

And my point about people calling WAAAHMBULANCE is just that, people saying we're allright with our team and then scream and whine when we get beat up like rag dolls, and even call the friggin police. I know Habs fans are bipolar, but if right now you think it's all good don't come here whine when one of our 'skilled' players gets injured and not one Habs player was there giving a **** that day.

Now I'm done

Go Habs go ! I'm still a fan, just a pessimist one...

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Old
10-05-2011, 03:09 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWhiteIdea View Post
Betts is not good enough when it comes to toughness....he is a nice addition for the 4th line sure and the PK etc...

The dude is not that physical & I dont think he has ever had a fight in his NHL career. He is not someone to protect Price & the little 'skilled & talented' players the Habs roster is supposedly full of.
We did not get him to be an enforcer...The guy isn't a thug but he IS tough...He's not going to fight or lay out big hits, but the guy has size and is strong on the puck and a good forechecker. For me, that's toughness. At least, we need THAT more than we need a fighter.

Betts will take faceoffs and, most importantly, play the PK. He gives Plekanec a rest, which was this team's biggest issue to me. Pleks plays PP, PK, ES, EVERYTHING...And he's not a big guy at all. He wears down. We need someone taking PK minutes from him so he can concentrate on offense. Betts will eat up those difficult PK minutes and will be a good forechecker for us (while being able to take faceoffs).

If you're looking for a fighter, this isn't him. But does he add toughness? Depends on your definition of toughness.

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Old
10-05-2011, 03:37 PM
  #194
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How is Darche soft and not physical? He's constantly crashing the net and taking abuse for the team, he's a limited skill roleplayer, and he doesn't fight, but there's absolutely nothing soft about his game.

White could not replace his role, at least at this point in his career. White is definitely tough, but he's smaller and thinner, and wouldn't be as good of a screen, plus he might not have Darche's intelligence and experience with fundamentals.

Is White more valuable? He has a lot more trade value, definitely, but you are comparing two very different players. I'd rather have Darche on the third line with Eller and AK for instance.

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Old
10-05-2011, 03:45 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Wait. Yesterday the argumenrt was Montreal won't get Betts because Gauthier hates toughness. They claim him and now it's Betts is not tough. I'm only using your logic boys. Lol
Don't believe a whole lot of people said that. I thought Gauthier would not claim him 'cause it made too much sense...didn't talk personnaly about toughness in his case 'cause Betts brings size...not toughness. Though he's solid in what he excels and especially the PK. Yet, it's not about getting an Hall of fame, it's about improving. And they did that by getting him.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 10-05-2011 at 03:56 PM.
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10-05-2011, 03:49 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Halakalakaboom View Post
The 'vs' comparison was just a way of saying 'we can agree to disagree' and not necessarily an answer to any question, much more comparing valid points between the two camps, as in, nobody's right nor wrong, and we could go on and on forever.

And my point about people calling WAAAHMBULANCE is just that, people saying we're allright with our team and then scream and whine when we get beat up like rag dolls, and even call the friggin police. I know Habs fans are bipolar, but if right now you think it's all good don't come here whine when one of our 'skilled' players gets injured and not one Habs player was there giving a **** that day.

Now I'm done

Go Habs go ! I'm still a fan, just a pessimist one...
Bi polar can usually be attributed to pessimistic fans who spend all season spewing hate on the habs because of their disagreement of how the team is build (no francos, no fighters, no superstars, no etc.) and then come PO will jump back in acting like they love the team and players. And let me guess, if we ever win the cup this year, whats going to happen to your pessimism? poof gone just like that?
The 'fans' who were crying for blood, were exactly you and all the others who need have negative view of the habs. (i was pissed, and so was everyone. but not everyone blamed management for what happened, mostly the ones who always blamed management). People with very awful emotional control IMO, thus the bi polarisim.
Be a skeptic, but not a pessimist. the later will only hurt you in the long run.

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10-05-2011, 04:08 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by TheWhiteIdea View Post
You want to add toughness add a couple players like Eric Godard and David Clarkson
Eric Godard is a horrible, horrible hockey player.

David Clarkson is signed to a contract with the New Jersey Devils. He's not available.

I'd like to add skill by adding Crosby and Stamkos, but unfortunately they have contracts with their teams too.

Maybe Gauthier has explored a trade for Clarkson.... maybe the asking price isn't worth it... we don't know... but there is nothing that guarantees, Clarkson is available.

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10-05-2011, 04:31 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't believe a whole lot of people said that. I thought Gauthier would not claim him 'cause it made too much sense...didn't talk personnaly about toughness in his case 'cause Betts brings size...not toughness. Though he's solid in what he excels and especially the PK. Yet, it's not about getting an Hall of fame, it's about improving. And they did that by getting him.
So maybe Gauthier isn't clueless after all...

I hate it when people judge management simply because they didn't do a few moves that fans agree with.

Seriously, Gauthier has done a pretty good job since in office, I don't understand the hate he gets. It's as if people expect perfection, which is ********.


As for the subject in hand, 99% of people here don't even know what toughness is. They think a guy like Godard is tough.

A guy like Gionta is full of toughness, St-Louis is full of toughness, etc. We have plenty of toughness on this team.

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10-05-2011, 06:55 PM
  #199
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Team toughness, teammates standing up for each other, instilling the fear of being hit by a freight train, is all part of intimidation and counter-intimidation, and that plays a big part in every single hockey game, even if people agree or not, the reality is, no one likes to get bruised, facewashed, punched on the nose, and that takes people out of their game. A frustrated Camaleri starts losing focus and takes stupid penalties or even gets suspended (see last year), you don't want that to happen. Adding a couple of tough guys won't prevent injuries, or dirty hits, but seeing your tough guy taking a run at a guy who facewashed your #1 center earlier in the game might appease the frustration. Like it or not, retaliation and being the instigator is better than staying passive in my book of hard-nosed hockey. By remaining passive, you lose respect. What if someone hits your girlfriend in a bar brawl and you do nothing ? You're a *****. No wonder why most other teams fans think the Habs are *******, easy to push around and a bunch of divers. And I'm tired that the greatest franchise of the NHL dosen't impose respect, with both their skill and team toughness. No need for goons, not asking for a fighter, just hard-nosed 4rth liners with size and big shutdown defenseman, that can drop the gloves when needed.


I said in a post previously that the fourth line isn't suited to support 3 lines of smaller, skilled forwards. Feel free to believe we have all the tools needed to dominate, while I'll keep my expectations really low for the coming season. Look at the Sabres for 2 and a half seconds, they have smallish forwards, but they have a much bigger support cast, not saying that they'll necessarily finish ahead of MTL, but at least they won't get pushed around like rag dolls.

I have been saying this for a long time regarding intimidation in hockey.

The problem with a lot of posters here is they have not played a physical sport involving contact. Video games do not involve emotions.

That, and Gauthier is a pacifist and is ensuring JM is one as well.

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10-05-2011, 09:27 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I have been saying this for a long time regarding intimidation in hockey.

The problem with a lot of posters here is they have not played a physical sport involving contact. Video games do not involve emotions.

That, and Gauthier is a pacifist and is ensuring JM is one as well.
I have, more than one actually, and I disagree with your views. The idea that other teams think we're pushovers, easy bunch of sissies is something that is painted by fans, and fans only. You put more importance on if somebody will respond when Price gets shoved rather than beating the #1 seed in POs, beating the SC defending champs, pulling upsets and taking the highly favored teams to the brink of elimination. This isn't what defines toughness to you. What you think is more important is if we have a player that can give out a KO to an opponent because they shoved one of our players the wrong way.

The problem with you is you think anybody that disagrees with your prehistoric view is someone that has no experience, when you probably have none yourself.
The habs are not a pushover team. You will look at the last TB game, say we were bullied, that it was disgusting, and all that crap. You will overlook the fact we actually won the game, and focus on the physicality aspect of the game instead, because that's clearly what is more important to you.

It's also been brought up before, but not surprised it's zinging right through you, JM, the pacifist coach, is one of the coaches that was part of the most penalized game in the NHL history. Certainly, that is the mark of a pacifist.

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