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Is this a cap circumvention?

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Old
10-04-2011, 10:17 PM
  #1
DeflatedFootball7
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Is this a cap circumvention?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=377385

There is a lot of discussion about this on the Flyers board and a couple of blogs as well as in the comments in the article.

When I first saw Schenn was sent down I was furious. However upon learning of the reduced cap I was ready to proclaim Holmgren a genius and GM criminal mastermind. However all this debate about "circumvention" has me worried. What does everyone else think?

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10-04-2011, 10:20 PM
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Well I'm sure he would win a grievance if he were to file one. Pretty dumb move anyways. Who was the last forward to average 25 minutes a game? Has it ever been done since the nhl recorded the stat?

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10-04-2011, 10:24 PM
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Benjo
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St Louis and Brindamour were at about 24:17 avg ice time in the mid 00's.

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10-04-2011, 10:25 PM
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It's not even close to cap circumvention.

Once again, "management" and "circumvention" are not the same thing.

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10-04-2011, 10:27 PM
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It's only circumvention if you're being paid more than your cap hit. In this case, he's not being paid all that money; the cap hit is commensurate to the pay the player is receiving. Therefore, no circumvention.

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10-04-2011, 10:28 PM
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everyone knows the bonus is unattainable, but in order for it to come off the books, it has to actually be impossible.

If the flyers didnt do this, they would have to either scratch him for a game or wait until he missed a game due to injury or something, otherwise they would be carrying that dead cap space all year for no reason.

Unless schenn files a grievance or something, i dont have a problem with it. It's a stupid bonus anyways, who knows why it's in the contract.

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10-04-2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjo View Post
St Louis and Brindamour were at about 24:17 avg ice time in the mid 00's.
Ok so looking it up only Joe Sakic Paul Kariya Jagr and Pavel Bure(several times) have done it in the past 15 or so years.
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
everyone knows the bonus is unattainable, but in order for it to come off the books, it has to actually be impossible.

If the flyers didnt do this, they would have to either scratch him for a game or wait until he missed a game due to injury or something, otherwise they would be carrying that dead cap space all year for no reason.

Unless schenn files a grievance or something, i dont have a problem with it. It's a stupid bonus anyways, who knows why it's in the contract.
Oh makes more sense now.

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10-04-2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well I'm sure he would win a grievance if he were to file one. Pretty dumb move anyways. Who was the last forward to average 25 minutes a game? Has it ever been done since the nhl recorded the stat?
smart move actually because if he does not miss one game the bonus is still "possible" so it counts against the cap. As soon as he misses one game it is automatically void and the cap hit is cut in half.

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10-04-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
smart move actually because if he does not miss one game the bonus is still "possible" so it counts against the cap. As soon as he misses one game it is automatically void and the cap hit is cut in half.
Well the article says he has to play 25 minutes in every game. So if they are right(they might not be) the bonus could be off the books after game 1 even if he plays no?

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10-04-2011, 10:32 PM
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A bit different, but the Penguins regularly assign players who don't have to clear waivers to the AHL when they have a couple of days off to get a little extra cap room. Not circumvention, it's good management.

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10-04-2011, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SomeDude View Post
A bit different, but the Penguins regularly assign players who don't have to clear waivers to the AHL when they have a couple of days off to get a little extra cap room. Not circumvention, it's good management.
Well that's actually legitimately pretty stupid. Chicago did this a few years ago too and it was just as stupid then. What are you saving a few thousand dollars a week? Makes no sense.

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10-04-2011, 10:36 PM
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Loopholes are legal until closed.

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10-04-2011, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well the article says he has to play 25 minutes in every game. So if they are right(they might not be) the bonus could be off the books after game 1 even if he plays no?
I was under the impression that he had to average 25 minutes a game, and play in all 82..I could be wrong, but this would make sense as to why they are going to sit him for one game.

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10-04-2011, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well that's actually legitimately pretty stupid. Chicago did this a few years ago too and it was just as stupid then. What are you saving a few thousand dollars a week? Makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense if you need those few thousands.

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10-04-2011, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Loopholes are legal until closed.
It's not a loophole, it's how things have worked since long before the salary cap came into effect. Back in the day, players who had a "games played" bonus just wouldn't get played.

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Old
10-04-2011, 11:01 PM
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kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeflatedFootball7 View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=377385

There is a lot of discussion about this on the Flyers board and a couple of blogs as well as in the comments in the article.

When I first saw Schenn was sent down I was furious. However upon learning of the reduced cap I was ready to proclaim Holmgren a genius and GM criminal mastermind. However all this debate about "circumvention" has me worried. What does everyone else think?
This is a case of sportswriter not really understanding what he's writing about w.r.t. the CBA.

Quote:
Schenn's contract, negotiated by the Los Angeles Kings will pay him $900,000 this year, plus $850,000 in entry level 'A' bonuses for a total of $1.75 million, however Schenn has substantial 'B' bonuses included in his deal that would be very cap unfriendly to the Flyers.

The 'B' bonuses in the first two years of his contract pay Schenn $1.265 million and $1.405 million if he plays 25 minutes in each of the 82 regular season games.
There is no possible "B" bonus that pays "if he plays 25 minutes in each of the 82 regular season games".

Exhibit 5 of the CBA lists all possible bonus categories allowed in ELS contracts.

The only individual "A" bonuses that Schenn is eligible for - with a max of $212K per bonus and a max total of $850K - are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Exhibit 5 - section 1(a)
(a) Forwards

(i) Ice time (aggregate and/or per Game). Player must be among top
six (6) forwards on the Club (minimum 42 Regular Season Games
played by Player and comparison group). (Note: an Entry Level
SPC may contain bonuses for both aggregate and per Game ice
time; however, the maximum aggregate amount the Player may
receive on account of the ice time category is $212,500.)

(ii) Goals: 20 Goal Minimum

(iii) Assists: 35 Assist Minimum

(iv) Points: 60 Point Minimum

(v) Points Per Game: .73 Points Per Game Minimum (minimum 42
Regular Season Games played)

(vi) Plus-Minus Rating: Among top three (3) forwards on the Club
(minimum 42 Regular Season Games played by Player and
comparison group).

(vii) End-of-Season NHL All-Rookie Team

(viii) NHL All-Star Game (selected to play or plays)

(ix) NHL All-Star Game MVP
The only categories for which a player may get league wide "B" bonuses - with a total max of $2M - are:

- Top 5 finish in Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, or Richard trophy

- Win Jennings trophy

- Named 1st or 2nd Team NHL All-Star

- Win Conn Smythe trophy

- Finish among the top ten (10) forwards in the League in goals, assists, points or points per Game (Minimum 42 Regular Season Games)

- Finish among the top ten (10) defensemen in the League in goals, assists, points, points per Game (Minimum 42 Regular Season Games) or ice time among defensemen (aggregate and/or per Game. Minimum 42 Regular Season Games)

- Finishes among the top five (5) goaltenders in the League in goals against average (25 game minimum, 30 minute minimum), save % (25 game minimum, 30 minute minimum) or wins (30 minute minimum, goaltender of record).

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Old
10-04-2011, 11:04 PM
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Well that confuses things. So why is he being sat then? I don't see how one game can affect any of those bonuses. The ice time bonuses he'll likely get no matter what.

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10-04-2011, 11:06 PM
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did Couturier make the team?

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10-04-2011, 11:08 PM
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Ozamataz Buckshank
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Pretty remarkable that a smart move like this is coming from the same organization who apparently didn't even read the CBA with some of the mistakes they made.

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10-04-2011, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
did Couturier make the team?
for now.

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10-04-2011, 11:12 PM
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Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Well that's actually legitimately pretty stupid. Chicago did this a few years ago too and it was just as stupid then. What are you saving a few thousand dollars a week? Makes no sense.
What makes it "pretty stupid", legitimately or otherwise?

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10-04-2011, 11:14 PM
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DeflatedFootball7
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
did Couturier make the team?
For now. Time will tell if he makes it full time.

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Old
10-04-2011, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
What makes it "pretty stupid", legitimately or otherwise?
Well what Chicago was doing was sending Jack Skille up and down every few days saying he had made the team. They did this for a while and then eventually just left him down there. There was almost no point to it and they got almost nothing out of it since they made no trades other than dumping Barkers salary at the deadline.

Having these guys fly to Wilkse-Barre and then back(because they do have to) just to save a measly amount of capspace is not very smart sorry to say.

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10-04-2011, 11:43 PM
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Its not circumvention, but i would be pissed as hell if i was Schenn. Taking money out of my pocket because you cant properly manage your staff assets? Fark you.

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10-04-2011, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by funkmastergeneral View Post
Pretty remarkable that a smart move like this is coming from the same organization who apparently didn't even read the CBA with some of the mistakes they made.
The contract was drafted by Los Angeles' capologist, Jeff Solomon.

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