MoneyPuck Canuck HFBoard +/- Tracker

Uhmkay · 10-07-2011, 03:39 PM

**Please Stick Mods**

*** PLEASE READ THIS POST BEFORE PARTICIPATING ***
Go here for now, it will update game by game:
http://hfboards.com/attachment.php?a...3&d=1319844757 *UPDATED* Sunday Oct 30th, 2011.

This is an idea that a few of us came up with after the first regular season game where we would come up with a new method for keeping track of players +/-. This system would track each players individually and show through the season their contributions both offensively and defensively by vitue of how their play effected goals.

Below I will list our methods for determining whether or not a player shall get +/- for their efforts.

***EDIT***- There will now be different +/- catagories for both even strength, PP and PK times. This will help us determine players that seem to be more efficient during each of those times.

'-' points:

1) Players shall only receive a - if they are deemed to be at fault for a goal. Simply being on the ice is not enough. This player(s) must be at fault themselves for a goal.

-An example of this would be a player leaving his check (who eventually scores) infront of the net to chase a player behind the net. Player behind the net then passes the puck to a wide open player who scores.

2) Players shall not receive a '-' for a goal that is deemed to simple be a BAD goal by the goalie.

-An example would be a shot from behind the goal line that deflects off the goalie stick and into the net

*EDIT* (More points will be added as we get this staightened out)

'+' points

1) Players who score a goal get a +.

2) Players who make a very good play that eventually lead to a goal.

- And example would be a defenseman making a breakaway pass to a player 60' away or Henrik Sedin making a behind the back pass to a player on the opposite side of the goalie to a wide open player who is then 1v1 against the goalie.

3) Players will NOT get a + for simply being on the ice if they did not have a direct impact on the play.

- IE: Players coming on from a shift change, are in the nuetral zone and 60' away from the play.

4) Players will receive a + if they cause the other team to take a penatly in which the Canucks then score on the PP.

- IE: Burrows draws a hook as he's entering the other teams zone or Lapierre draws a penatly when a guy decides to punch him for running his mouth. If the Canucks score on the resulting PP, these players would receive a +.

*EDIT* (More to be added as we go).

Process:

After every game, all goals scored will be posted and then looked over by members of this forums. Everyone is able to participate and give their views on the play and who they think should get an appropriate +/-. If someone is able to record the game and post videos while the game is on, even better.

When you are discussing a goal, please make sure to make obvious which goal you are talking about.
- IE: "Canucks Goal 1 - Ballard wiffed on the clearing attempt leading to a breakaway for <Name> and a goal. -1 for Ballard."

A database of the stats will be kept for the year and posted regularily so results can be seen. These results will then be compared to official stats on NHL.com.

As time goes on, it should become clear which players are having a more beneficial effect on the outcomes of the game. Also, as people in the forum participate, it should give those who are not familiar with systems play a better understanding for their own personal knowledge.

StatsKeeper - Timmer44.

*EDIT* (More points to be added)

Balls Mahoney · 10-07-2011, 03:50 PM

Meh...

Canucker · 10-07-2011, 03:57 PM

I like the idea but its going to be highly subjective. Luongo will end up -300 while only allowing like 130 goals. Plus there are some people who will disagree on who should be blamed/credited with points.

Uhmkay · 10-07-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balls Mahoney

Meh...

Feel free NOT to participate if you don't like the idea. A few of us did, which is why this thread was created.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canucker

I like the idea but its going to be highly subjective. Luongo will end up -300 while only allowing like 130 goals. Plus there are some people who will disagree on who should be blamed/credited with points.

As with regular +/-, goalies will not be included in the stats. And I do agree that this is going to be highly subjective, we'll have to do the best that we can and go with a general consensus.

Tiranis · 10-07-2011, 04:20 PM

People on this site don't know enough about defense to properly assess who was responsible for a goal. Besides, often times the break down occurs a long time before a goal is scored so the guy that's responsible for the goal is only responsible because he's covering up for somebody else, etc.

All of this is so incredibly subjective.

PRNuck · 10-07-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis

People on this site don't know enough about defense to properly assess who was responsible for a goal. Besides, often times the break down occurs a long time before a goal is scored so the guy that's responsible for the goal is only responsible because he's covering up for somebody else, etc.

All of this is so incredibly subjective.

A "who to blame?" fan poll for each goal against perhaps?

chopkins · 10-07-2011, 04:23 PM

I like this idea. Obviously most of us will watch every game and will have a general idea over the season of who's playing well/poorly on both ends of the ice, but this could be a good reference in the future or for the casual fan. Of course, this method is extremely subjective, but it's better than the current +/- system.

Take last night: No player on the ice when Luongo let in the puck from behind the net is at fault for the goal. Yet they all got a -. Same with the SHG. Only Bieksa was even close to being at fault, but that was still mostly Luongo. No player on the ice when Lapierre scored did anything leading up to that goal, yet they all received a +.

Very subjective, but it should grow more accurate as the season goes on.

AndyPipkin · 10-07-2011, 04:37 PM

It will be subjective, but there are plenty of us here who know what we're talking about and we all recognise those posts.

It would be nice to be slighty more strict on this thread when it comes to people not posting intelligently.

VanEric · 10-07-2011, 04:46 PM

On Lapierre's goal, what about the people that did the work to get the puck into Pit's zone? Its an interesting idea but hockey's so much of a team game to try to apply these baseball like concepts to it.

AndyPipkin · 10-07-2011, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanEric

On Lapierre's goal, what about the people that did the work to get the puck into Pit's zone? Its an interesting idea but hockey's so much of a team game to try to apply these baseball like concepts to it.

It would depend on our view of how much the play contributes. Like did they just gain the line and leave or did they start said play?

Tiranis · 10-07-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyPipkin

It will be subjective, but there are plenty of us here who know what we're talking about and we all recognise those posts.

It would be nice to be slighty more strict on this thread when it comes to people not posting intelligently.

It's a pretty regular occurrence that 90+% of people on here blame the wrong person for the goal because all they see is the split-second before the goal happened.

crazycanuck · 10-07-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanEric

On Lapierre's goal, what about the people that did the work to get the puck into Pit's zone? Its an interesting idea but hockey's so much of a team game to try to apply these baseball like concepts to it.

It was such a bad goal, and honestly it was a broken play and Lapierre did most of the work to get the puck and fire it on net.

parabola · 10-07-2011, 04:55 PM

This was already done with the Jovo Nono rating and I guarantee you'll give up after a few games.

VanEric · 10-07-2011, 04:57 PM

Maybe it should be a weighted system where you assign 1 to 5 to each of the players on the ice. 1 if they had no real impact on the play to 5 if they were to 5 if they were directly responsible for the goal.

For example, if a guy fails to clear a puck on the PK and eventually the other team scores, I'd give him a 3 or 4 but not a 5 because the PK unit had chances to rectify that mistake.

MS · 10-07-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis

People on this site don't know enough about defense to properly assess who was responsible for a goal. Besides, often times the break down occurs a long time before a goal is scored so the guy that's responsible for the goal is only responsible because he's covering up for somebody else, etc.

All of this is so incredibly subjective.

Yeah, it's worth a try to see what happens, I guess, but I suspect it will end up being quite flawed.

A guy like Alberts rarely makes 'obvious' mistakes that give away goals, but his gap control and defensive zone coverage are so soft that goals pour in while he's on the ice. Aaron Rome, on the other hand, is a much more aggressive and effective player, but makes more 'mistakes' because of that aggressiveness.

AndyPipkin · 10-07-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis

It's a pretty regular occurrence that 90+% of people on here blame the wrong person for the goal because all they see is the split-second before the goal happened.

Hopefully having a decent amount of video from before the goals will counter this. And I don't think stats should be rewarded without proof and a semi general consensus.

AndyPipkin · 10-07-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanEric

Maybe it should be a weighted system where you assign 1 to 5 to each of the players on the ice. 1 if they had no real impact on the play to 5 if they were to 5 if they were directly responsible for the goal.

For example, if a guy fails to clear a puck on the PK and eventually the other team scores, I'd give him a 3 or 4 but not a 5 because the PK unit had chances to rectify that mistake.

This isn't a half bad idea.

wesamess · 10-07-2011, 05:04 PM

this stat will be mean little for low minute skaters. As for high minute skaters, this stat will be more meaningful. Also, the + stat will more likely be given to skaters that mostly play in the offensive zone whereas the - stat will be more likely given to defensemen. Luongo will almost never get a + stat if we are including him.

eklunds source · 10-07-2011, 05:25 PM

This is a good project and I support it, but it's been pretty well documented the fallacies of actual +/-... That's why Corsi, Fenwick, and tracking scoring chances exist...

I'm not sure you'll get any information those stats don't already provide... If anything it will likely end up less accurate?

YouCantYandleThis · 10-07-2011, 06:15 PM

This is ridiculously subjective.

If you did it, you'd have to get a panel of people to run it, that you're PRETTY DARN SURE are bias free towards any players.

But I'd love to keep track of this thread if you could find the right people to pull it off.

**jumptheshark** · 10-07-2011, 06:18 PM

YOu need to be at the game to pass judgement on some of the goals

because a player who does not pick up a check and that player scores--he gets the hit

but you need to see the guy not pick up the check away from the play to pass judgement

VanEric · 10-07-2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheStig

YOu need to be at the game to pass judgement on some of the goals

because a player who does not pick up a check and that player scores--he gets the hit

but you need to see the guy not pick up the check away from the play to pass judgement

Or you'd need the game tape that the coaches get. I was at the game and Bieksa was just ****ing around in his own zone when we were on the PP and I knew something bad would happen. The goal was still not really his fault but you could see something bad coming with the way he was messing around. Certainly it gave Matt Cooke the confidence to try to make a play instead of just chip it in and change.

Dana Murzyn · 10-07-2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parabola

This was already done with the Jovo Nono rating and I guarantee you'll give up after a few games.

The Jovo No-No thread was rad!

We need more threads like this, even if they don't last. Worst case, it'll generate some good discussion for a few games.

petrishriekandgo · 10-07-2011, 08:12 PM

So, for ***** and giggles... what would the results be for yesterdays game?

Timmer44 · 10-07-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis

People on this site don't know enough about defense to properly assess who was responsible for a goal. Besides, often times the break down occurs a long time before a goal is scored so the guy that's responsible for the goal is only responsible because he's covering up for somebody else, etc.

All of this is so incredibly subjective.

My 24 years of hockey and 10+ years of coaching say otherwise. I fully understand the Canucks systems and enjoy seeing anything new they throw in the mix. I have no problem debating the reason why a goal happened. If worse comes to worse, we can have a poll.