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Should the Pens fold?

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Old
12-01-2003, 08:53 PM
  #1
struckmatch
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Should the Pens fold?

Before anyone starts flaming me, I don't mean this thread to be a Penguin bashing thread, or to be an ass.

Nick Kypreos, and Bill Watters of Hockeycentral on Sportsnet were mentioning that the Penguins are an "embarrassment to the NHL" and that the "Straka deal should never have been allowed to happen, as it was a blatantly obvious salary dump"

There are so many issues with this subject, yes I understand that the Penguins will most likely not fold mid season, or near the end, but consider this scenario:

An eastern team in another division than the Penguins, misses a playoff spot by 1 pt., or 2 pts. to the NYI, or another team in the Penguins division, can they argue that with the Penguins icing that AHL lineup, that they actually put up decent competition?

If I'm the Team that missed the Playoffs, I'm arguing that there are 4 teams that each have 6 games against(12 pts.) and a distinct advantage, because they play the Pens 6 times a year, and the rest of the East plays them only 4 times(8 pts) a year.

Now, I am not agreeing with either side, that they should fold, or not, but I want to hear your opinions on this, do the other eastern division teams have the right to be angry? And what should the Penguins do, because their situation is absolutely horrible.

First Jagr for nothing, then Kovalev for nothing, now Straka for nothing. All pathetic salary dumps.

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12-01-2003, 09:03 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecca13
Yes they should. How the NHL allows the salary purging the Pens year after year do is beyond me. It's not the fans fault, I wouldn't pay to watch that team.

Thats where I think I agree with you. The fans are at no fault here. But who's to Blame? The Ownership of the Pens? The NHL?

It's honestly getting to the point where the Penguins are literally an AHL team. Do their division rivals have an advantage playing them? IMO, yes they do. 4 pts. can make all the difference in the world in todays tight NHL

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:05 PM
  #3
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sad thing is, there are teams that lose a lo more $ than the Pens, but i is never talked about folding them. teaams lose 25M a year, how come they shouldnt be folded? it obvious they cant pa for what they have on the ice. the difference is the Pens owners arent willin o lose a lot of money when they are tryin to get a new arena. the fact they were bankrupt at one point means eveyone runs them through a micrscope. everything is lookd at as done for finacial reasons, even if i isnt.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:12 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
sad thing is, there are teams that lose a lo more $ than the Pens, but i is never talked about folding them. teaams lose 25M a year, how come they shouldnt be folded? it obvious they cant pa for what they have on the ice. the difference is the Pens owners arent willin o lose a lot of money when they are tryin to get a new arena. the fact they were bankrupt at one point means eveyone runs them through a micrscope. everything is lookd at as done for finacial reasons, even if i isnt.
The other team(s) losing 25 million (if it is true) aren't jettisoning off star players in obvious salary-dumps year after year. The Pens have earned their rep. I dunno about folding them-I HATE seeing teams moved-but watching star players dumped for almost nothing is just sickening.

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12-01-2003, 09:14 PM
  #5
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What people can't understand is that the only difference between the Pens and say... the Devils or Isles, or Kings, etc.. is that the owner can't afford to lose money.
If he could afford, no salary dump would be necessary.
But the owner can't lose too much money, so they try to break even by all ways.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:19 PM
  #6
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Quote:
"Straka deal should never have been allowed to happen, as it was a blatantly obvious salary dump"
It must have taken some kind of detective work to figure that one out. CP admitted it was a salary dump.

The bottom line here is that the Penguins are no worse than the Canes were last year, or the Thrashers were the year before that. Bad teams come along, it doesn't mean they should fold. It'd be a different story if they had say.. zero wins on the season, but they don't. They've beaten the Senators, Bruins, Thrashers, and Red Wings to name a few. These are teams that might argue the point of Pittsburgh being an AHL lineup.

The Caps are planning to dump Jagr, should they fold too? Pretty much every single trade and transaction that is made in today's NHL has finances taken into major consideration. It's just the way it is right now.

I'm sure more teams would be in the Penguins shape if they didn't have new buildings. Regardless of what comes out of the CBA, a new arena should really help field a competitive team in the future.

Contracting the Penguins for their recent trades would be, in my opinion, stupid. They're making these trades to help the franchise, and to keep it in Pittsburgh, not to disband it.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:19 PM
  #7
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I must be the only one who didn't think that the Straka deal was that bad. I was hoping the Pens would draft Anshakov after taking Whitney with their first pick in '02. Instead they took Nemec, which was good, but I was hoping they'd take a forward. Anshakov was the player I was hoping for.

Any time you have a well-paid player traded for prospects, there are going to be cries of "Salary Dump!" all over the place. In my opinion, the Jagr and Straka deals were cost-cutting moves, but not so blatant that they should have been vetoed by the league. All 3 prospects from the Jagr deal are on the verge of making an impact in the NHL. And it wasn't like we traded away a performing superstar in Straka...he wasn't doing ANYTHING for Pittsburgh this year. He needed to be moved.

Yes, Pittsburgh is in financial trouble. True, their lineup isn't exactly star-studded. No, they should not fold. Mario just took a $5 million paycut to help the team out. It's not like Pittsburgh is an "embarassment" to the league...they are simply rebuilding for the post-lockout NHL. They might not win many games, but to suggest that they can't compete is a little silly.

If you're convinced that Pittsburgh is an embarassment to the league because of their diminished talent level and financial situation, I'll ask you this: What, exactly, is Washington's excuse? Should THEY fold because they've only won a few games? The fact is, management in Pittsburgh knows this season doesn't mean much. They're preparing for hockey after 2004.


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Old
12-01-2003, 09:20 PM
  #8
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I say give the Pens 2-3 years in the post CBA envionment and if they are still dumping contracts right, left, and center fold them.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:21 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
I say give the Pens 2-3 years in the post CBA envionment and if they are still dumping contracts right, left, and center fold them.
It doesn't matter what's on the ice. If they don't have a new arena they're moving to Las Vegas or Houston regardless.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:38 PM
  #10
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Scrabble always gives me a major adrenaline rush.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:40 PM
  #11
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Washington's doing even worse with one more game off the schedule. They should be contracted.

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Old
12-01-2003, 09:57 PM
  #12
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Do you people even know what you're talking about? If they're such a bad business, then they'll fold on their own. Don't they get a chance to pull out of their "colossal" two-year funk? Unless you haven't been reading the news, help could be on the way by way of a new arena and/or favorable CBA result.

Until then, please, save your misinformed comments.

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12-01-2003, 10:00 PM
  #13
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The Penguins attendance is around 10,000 per game. Not too shabby for an AHL product. That's another way to look at it.

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Old
12-01-2003, 10:04 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Yes they should, this is absolutley ridiculous and if it was any other business they'd be out of it in a second.
Isn't good business all about profit and losses? The Penguins are losing only a fraction of the moneys that teams like the Blues and Caps are.

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Old
12-01-2003, 10:55 PM
  #15
Darth Vitale
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I agree. At this point, anyone who asks whether the Pens should fold, based on moves like the Straka and Kovalev deal, obviously have little understanding of economics and have surely never run a business during tight times.

Let me see if an obnoxious all-caps message can get the message through:

THE SALARY DUMPS ARE MADE TO AVOID BEING SHUT DOWN.

PATRICK IS DOING THE ONLY THING HE CAN TO SAVE THE TEAM... JETTISON BIG SALARIES FOR SMALL ONES UNTIL THEY CAN AFFORD THE BIG ONES AGAIN.

He's also put the team in a rebuilding mode to boot, which means acquiring decent / very talented prospects and minor leaguers / Euros is preferable to acquiring guys who are decent performers (not great) but nonetheless have 2 and 3M salaries. People talk about the Pens getting Comrie and it just makes me laugh. If we could afford a Comrie, we'd have never bagged Straka in the first place....

The economics of the game is what forces the Pens to do what they've done over the last three seasons. Even if they were selling out fairly often, they'd still be in bad shape because their arena has no luxury boxes / none of the modern revenue streams that come with new arenas. Even the Canucks are a wealthy team compared to Pittsburgh, and it has largely to do with not the market in Vancouver or the fans but the arena.

If you want someone to pish on, go to Gary Betteman's house. He has allowed all the wrong things to happen in this league over the last ten years or so, and now small market teams are paying for it. Do you think Phoenix would have a prayer in hell of surviving if they didn't have the Glendale Arena coming this month? Or the Sabres if they didn't have the HSBC arena to help them get healthy again? Or the Sens?

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Old
12-01-2003, 11:05 PM
  #16
Vlad The Impaler
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I think their trades are ridiculously stupid. That's one thing.

Should I think they should fold? Who am I to say that? I don't have the complete information to voice that kind of opinion. And neither does anyone else (whatever their opinion is) around here, so that question is pointless.

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Old
12-01-2003, 11:11 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Nick Kypreos, and Bill Watters of Hockeycentral on Sportsnet were mentioning that the Penguins are an "embarrassment to the NHL"
The irony here is mind-boggling.

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Old
12-01-2003, 11:20 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
The irony here is mind-boggling.

haha, i agree with the irony, but the thing is i could not find a reason to disagree with them on this particular issue.

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12-02-2003, 12:20 AM
  #19
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I'm sorry, but to suggest that a professional sports team should just be boxed up and moved by its league is ludicrous. Unlike half the teams in this league, the Penguins are not bleeding money. They know things will change after the new CBA is put in place.

Yeah, let's break up the Penguins. What are they thinking with their 2 years of sub-par play? That kind of performance is an embarassment! They made the playoffs for something like 11 straight years for crying out loud! Aren't they allowed to go through a rough patch? That's what happens in pro sports. No team reigns forever.

May I remind you that the Pens made the Eastern Conference Finals just a few short years ago, in 2001? To suggest that this team should be folded is silly...I can rattle off a list of teams who have played poorly a lot longer than Pittsburgh has: Calgary, Chicago, Tampa...even teams like Montreal and Toronto haven't exactly been tearing through the postseason in recent years! If you actually take the time to look back, you'll notice that Pittsburgh isn't performing any worse than the bad teams of previous years. Their record is not an aberration for a bad team; it's not like they have 2 wins and are on pace for only 10. They'll probably end up with around 20 wins, which is on par for a poor (or last-place) NHL team. No team should be folded just because they came in last one year.

If Pittsburgh is really that bad, they'll fold on their own. Lucky for us, Craig Patrick isn't going to allow that to happen. Depending on the terms of the new CBA, Pittsburgh could end up with the last laugh, because they've chosen to cut their losses and look to the future rather than continue to lose money in exchange for one year of success.

We're talking about 2...count em, 2 years of trouble here, folks. Fold the Pens? Get real.

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12-02-2003, 12:27 AM
  #20
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I'm not saying that the Pens should fold, I merely asked a question. I understand that they are trying to be fiscally responsible, unlike most NHL teams. The money is one issue, but another issue that they are giving up STAR players to other teams without those teams having to give up anything significant off their roster. Which is really more or less giving away their players who have the room on their salaries to afford them.

Another thing is this team desperately needs a new arena, and if they don't get one, they're gone from pittsburgh in the near future.

Rico Fata is their leading scorer, I see that as more of a concern than something to be happy about. Thats not exactly a bragging point for the Pittsburgh Penguins, and the rest of their roster doesnt exactly send chills down their opponents spines.

This is a difficult position for the Pens, and their fans have been as loyal as they can be. Great fans IMO, although the NHL needs to draw the line somewhere.

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12-02-2003, 01:00 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I think their trades are ridiculously stupid. That's one thing.

Should I think they should fold? Who am I to say that? I don't have the complete information to voice that kind of opinion. And neither does anyone else (whatever their opinion is) around here, so that question is pointless.
Once again, tell me what the Pens SHOULD have done with Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, Hrdina and Kaspraitis to make trades you wouldn't consider as stupid?

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12-02-2003, 01:11 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
I say give the Pens 2-3 years in the post CBA envionment and if they are still dumping contracts right, left, and center fold them.
Its too late. they only have 3 legitimate nhlers in tarnstrom, Fleury and Lemieux. Unless of course the departure of guys like jobber and fringe will be slary dumps. There is a day in the near future where Brian Holzinger will be the team's best player.

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Old
12-02-2003, 02:30 AM
  #23
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Once again, tell me what the Pens SHOULD have done with Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, Hrdina and Kaspraitis to make trades you wouldn't consider as stupid?
Get good young players. Better picks, better prospects. Anything but what I have seen.

Why were the Senators, a cash-strapped franchise, able to get Spezza and Chara with a big pansy like Yashin? He had a horrible attitude and was holding out on them for months.

There are ways to trade talent in this league and get cheap stuff that is actually good. It's done all the time.

The Bruins, Oilers, Senators and Sabres have all had somewhat similar problems and they nonetheless get good returns. Look at the Bruins. They found a way to trade Allison and remain extremely competitive in the process.

The Pens are managed by buffoons. They're not even saving that much money. Teams that are well-managed can remain competitive. Thus having better crowds. Teams that are competitive can make the playoffs. That's where the extra cash is. Those moves are NOT helping the Penguins. At all.

Don't forget that the so-called savings you make are not all that clear cut either. You cut a good player's salary for instance. But then someone else has to come up and earn pro-level money. He's not earning as much but he's making bucks. And he probably doesn't perform as well as your top guy so your performances take a hit.

Why not get solid cheap players that can help, like the Oilers do with York, Isbister and so many others?

Prospects of Anshakov's value are what the Sabres get for Vaclav freaking Varada (Jakub Klepis). It's just too low of a return for Straka, IMO.

Do you realize that even if the Penguins manage to become competitive again, they may face a very tough time winning back the crowds? It's unfortunate but at this pace it's going to take long years and there's no way of telling if the loooong rebuilding will even pay off. Proven cheap talent once in a while is much safer sometimes. It also allows good teams to remain competitive.

Suppose you manage to nab Ovechkin. Suppose you manage to nab Crosby. Then what? Are they really going to be that great? And are you going to be able to pay them? And are you going to get a legitimate coach and build a true team?

What is the purpose of completely destroying the franchise like they are doing?

I keep hearing they have a gun to their head. Lots of teams face pressure situation. Lots of teams have unloaded top talent in the past. Why do the Pens always seem like they are giving away the talent and not the other franchises? I don't understand.

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Old
12-02-2003, 03:11 AM
  #24
john g
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Six years later can we say that the Florida Marlins salary dumps warranted them folding?

Once the CBA is said and done, I wouldnt be to surprised if teams look at and model their financial models after teams like the Pens and Bruins. One puts a decent product out there and makes money, the other is having a hard time making money so they do what they need to to stay afloat.

The Pens problems lie within the simple guise of they dont have a bizillionaire owner that is willing to lose money whilst trying to buy a championship (see Leonis, Illitch etc....) It is a sad day (and a good indicator of today's society: getting something the easiest way rather than hard work) I think that when a team should be appaluded for being able to finanicially stay afloat, rather than chastised for not being a team run by a wealthy individual who just buys players and the cup.

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Old
12-02-2003, 03:39 AM
  #25
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Simply way to fix all of this.

The problems begin and end with Gary Bettman who turned around and announce that 3,999,99.99 can be exchanged for Kovalev so the Pens could pay the bills for the remainder of the season.

Teams making a trade cannot pay the players they are trading for the remainder of a season as compensation. Pens-Rangers.

No cash exchanged in trades under any circumstances. Trades the league does not feel are competitive are voided or draft pick compensation must be given to equal a players restricted free agency value.

eg:
Kovalev=five first round picks from NYR-to Pittsburgh.
Fata in the deal reduces that to four first round picks.
Samuelsson reduces that to three first round picks.

Make it harder for owners to get out of contracts they give out and do not allow the big markets to bid unless it's like signing a restricted free agent and compensation with picks.

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